Keylight and Premiere CS3

[Vince Becquiot]

Probably use After Effects.

I haven’t gotten it to work either. Remember, Keylight is a third party plugin, so the After Effects plugin architecture doesn’t apply here. With the right workflow, you should be able to key in AE pretty seemlessly. If you have already started editing, things will get a bit more complicated.

Vince

[Eric Barker]

First of all, plugin ARCHITECTURE is universal, regardless of whether it’s third party or not.

Secondly, workflow has nothing to do with it. I work at a small TV station, many times, we just shoot talent on greenscreen and throw in a background scene or a virtual set to be used in a weekly template format. I, personally, am fairly knowledgable in AE, but many of our news team and producers are simply editors. AE is a terrible non-linear editing environment, as it is designed more for compositing and creating smaller elements.

90% of our greenscreening consists of shooting lost pets on a weekly basis. I don’t have time to pre-composite in after effects first, and AEs clumsiness with audio and realtime playback makes it difficult to put a whole spot together.

So, “just use After Effects”, is not an answer I’m looking for. I don’t mean to sound bitchy, but I get that answer a lot, and in this instance, it’s very inconvenient and shouldn’t have to be that way.

Every other plugin I’ve ever tried (including the Cycore set) works… why won’t the plugin that would be MOST at home in a non-linear editor (a greenscreen plugin) not work? I almost wonder whether Adobe has PURPOSEFULLY made it not work, for legal reasons.

[Vince Becquiot]

Well, I can certainely tell you that many AE 3rd party plugins are “integrated” into AE. I can probably also tell you why it doesn’t work , Keylight involves masking as part of its settings, not supported by Premiere.

I use a Plugin called Primatte for keying, also involving masking, it doesn’t work with Premiere either. In fact, many AE third party plugins only work in AE because of that very issue.

So I don’t think it’s a licencing issue, otherwise, “the Foundry” would be selling a Premiere version.

My workflow doesn’t involve audio, or editing in AE. I key the clips I need in AE, then simply export the composition to Premiere for editing.

I do work in DVCPro HD, and my workflow will get a lot better once AE supports that format (I’m told soon).

It is an extra step, but I don’t see any way around it. Once you get used to that workflow, it becomes second nature.

Depending on how many clips you have, you could even import your Premiere project into After Effects. Each cut will create a new layer on a timeline, and all you have to do in AE is the keying. Things can get messy on larger projects however.

Give it a shot, see if it’ll work for you, but I very much prefer keying the entire footage first and letting it do its thing overnight in a render queue.

Cheers,

Vince

[Eric Barker]

It’s not that I’m not used to that workflow pattern, at all. I do animations and text manipulation in AE on a daily basis. But those are for full fledged commercial spots, where I can afford to put the added time into it. But most of our greenscreening is low budget stuff, usually for weekly specials or for inhouse IDs, things that I need to churn out in 45 minutes or less.

But this is mostly a logistical issue. If I were to leave (which I’m planning on doing so here in the next few months), and if I had done all our weekly’s and specials using AE, there would be no one here who would know how to pick up where I left off. I’m teaching my boss AE, little by little, but it’s going to take her a while before she’s comfortable using it on a daily basis. So, for now, my business has had a “no After Effects” policy when it comes to required, longterm campaigns, and for good reason.

Greenscreen is used in compositing and animation, but it’s just as much a part of non-linear editing, as well, if not more-so. In my experience, it makes more sense to be a part of a non-linear editor than in a pre-compositing program like AE.

[Jon Barrie]

You sound like you have some skills but your comments are not making too much sense.

In my experience, it makes more sense to be a part of a non-linear editor than in a pre-compositing program like AE.

Keying is a pre-compositing process. Granted you would edit the footage, but then only key what you have edited. You can key in NLEs, like PPro and FCP they aren’t the best so you do the proper Keying in AE or Shake with the edited key footage, and replace the shot/s.

So, for now, my business has had a “no After Effects” policy when it comes to required, longterm campaigns, and for good reason.

If the business can’t be bothered learning or hiring someone with the skills to work in AE properly it shouldn’t be taking these Keying based jobs. 45mins for a keying job is pretty tight. Most Advanced users won’t have too much of an issue with that, but a learner definitely will.

Provided footage is lit correctly and not spilling key colour all over the place (even then) it can be done in PPro by making a clean matte using Chroma Key + Non-Red Key with the matte only option then track matte that layer from a copy of the original and colour correct the original. Again this is Advanced stuff, skills that cost money results that cost time/money.

Keying is a premium product, which should be treated with appropriate respect (ie: skilled staff who can do it) and time.

It’s not your place to keep your boss in business. I had the same guilt trip at my last FT job (I freelance now). My employer would try to give clients a $5000 job at less than half price. It ruins respect for the industry and clients ask for high quality results without paying for it.

I’m tired of hearing about businesses trying to out bid the big guys and ruin proper wages for highly skilled and experienced staff. It’s part of the slow and continuing destruction of the industry. Don’t worry about your boss – worry about your own future as a skilled/creative technician!

– Jon

[Eric Barker]

My thoughts exactly. Truth is, I’m in market 202 (out of, what, 213 markets in the US?) Fairbanks, Alaska. I make up 50% of the in-house production division, and the bulk of the editing. As a TV-station, we regularly deal with station promotion, as well as outside clients. I wear hats as producer, editor, videographer, graphic designer, voice actor, and even composer, when I feel the motivation.

I’ve gotten very skilled with AE in the past year and a half, and I can safely say that there’s noone else in this market that can do motion graphics anywhere as well as I can. Heck, the number of people who can use AE in this state are probably in the double-digits, and nearly all of them are in Anchorage.

We don’t have the time or the lighting to do “great” greenscreening. We just use the weather set, and cross our fingers. If I had my way, we’d never do greenscreening here, but clients sometimes feel differently. I’ve resigned myself to the feeling that “greenscreening is just not something we can do well, at this leve.” But with keylight, I’ve found that I can make greenscreening look “decent” instead of “horrid”, I just wish I could use it in Premiere.

[Jeff Brown]

… and I’m in agreement with both of you. I do animation and post services, frequently for producer/editors. Some of them have done their own greenscreen keying, but I think they now realize that an acceptable key is different than a really good key. And a really good key takes the initial keying, frequently some roto, plus edge flashing, color suppression, and color correction. And that is best done in a compositing app.

Too bad though, that Keylight doesn’t work in Premiere. Reminds me I’ve been meaning to try it in Combustion (my tool of choice), because I’ve heard such good things about it.

Re: client demands for greenscreening– I’d offer it (even w/ the weather set) but remind them it’s a “premium” service. And charge accordingly.

-jeff

[Vince Becquiot]

Well, I’ll go back to the original issue. You “could” do the keying in Premiere.

It isn’t expensive or that time consuming to setup a “small” green screen. You can buy one or two Cyc lights ($150.00 each), and either buy a collaspsible green screen ($200.00?), or a foam based screen that won’t wrinkle (very cheap on Ebay). Just stay away from muslins.
If you do keep the talents at a good distance, you could certainely get that keying done in Premiere, I have done it quite successfully. For larger screens, that probably wouldn’t work. Now, if you are shooting DV, well, have a nice day 🙂

Vince

[Eric Barker]

Unfortunately, Premiere’s keying doesn’t do spill correction, and it’s boundary isn’t feathered, so it’s very pixilated. Wispy hair just flickers, and people commonly look sick. I’ll continue to do all my “good” greenscreening in AE, and the really basic, home-towny stuff (ie: low budget), I’ll just accept that it’s going to suck, and the client won’t care because they hardly ever do anyway.