Just Venting

[Craig Seeman]

My bet is this will all change with Final Cut Studio 4.
Sony Vegas, Adobe Premiere, Edius and, I believe Avid with the new AMA all allow direct use of the MP4 files.

BTW you can buy the Calibrated Software EX MP4 plugin and even FCP can use those files directly.

Yes, I agree that the idea of having to rewrap adds another step and another bunch of files and makes reconstituting projects a major hassle too.

I think Apple is aware of the demand for direct codec support and I think it’ll be there in the next FCS upgrade.

I’d not it’s not so much a Mac thing as it’s specific to Final Cut Pro. There are other Mac NLEs that don’t need this workflow. Also note that Avid users had to deal with wrap to MXF.

And if you think EX XDCAM is bad imagine dealing with AVCHD which isn’t resolved by a simple rewrap but a time consuming transcode to much larger ProRes files.

BTW there’s also rumor that Apple is working on a new codec. My hunch they’re looking at something more efficient than ProRes.

[Bob Tompkins]

I agree that all of the things you talk about are a pain. I think that Sony and their dealers need to a better job of explaining XDCam and the FCP workflow and have expressed this to my dealer.

I do like having full HD for $6300.00 (EX1r). I also like not having tape anymore although deep inside I do feel like I am going to get burned using SDHC cards eventually.

Is FCS4 imminent?

[Craig Seeman]

Rumors of FCS4 range from end of this year to around July of next year. Apple’s pattern has been every two years with the exact date varying a bit.

Another problem with the EX workflow specific to Final Cut Pro is that neither Apple nor Sony do a good job explaining it. Sony has a PDF on their site which I actually think is misleading. Apple has a PDF on EX XDCAM (and file based workflows in general) which seems incomplete to me as well.

There’s NO explanation of the pitfalls to Post Production workflow with MOV being specific to FCP (can’t easily share with other systems) and how to reconstitute offline projects.

To basic workflow for me is:
Copy to hard drive with ClipBrowser with CRC On for copy verification.
Backup BPAV to Blu-ray discs
Use XDCAM Transfer to wrap to mov for FCP.

BPAV can go to whoever else might need the masters
Reconstitue offline project means rewrapping the BPAV to MOV as needed.

Once you get into subclipping or renaming clips for importing you open a Pandora’s Box IMHO. I wish the workflow made that simple but it doesn’t. Others will back up the MOV files but then you’ve got both BPAV or MOV. Others will toss the BPAV and then you’ve lost the masters with the metadata. MInd you this is really Apple/FCP fault because if MP4 were directly supported you could simply import the clips, back them up and be done with it.

[Patrick Mcload]

Not to beat a dead horse, but my biggest fear is returning from an out of state or country shoot only to find that I did not transfer my clips correctly for one reason or another. Perhaps the answer is to just have $5,000 worth of SxS cards and not transfer ANYTHING.

Why in the world would Sony title their software “Transfer” when it has nothing to do with transferring files? I quote from the XDCAM EX Workflows manual for FCP: “To archive media from an SxS card to hard disc or other media, the Sony XDCAM EX Clip Browser application MUST (underlined) be used”.

How can this be for an application named “Browser”? To browse is to look around; to transfer is to move from one to another. I bought an overpriced $300 piece of Sony junk, the SBAC-US10 SxS Memory Card USB Reader/Writer. Hasn’t worked yet, and I can’t trust it as far as I can throw it.

But you’re right…one of these days it’s gonna bite us, and I can’t imagine how that conversation will go with the client, informing him that we only have half of the footage shot. Oh, and that expensive set-up for the CEO? It’s gone too. Yet one more reason for expensive production insurance.

At least with tape, you knew it was in the can.

Patrick

[Patrick Mcload]

To further muddy the water, Apple has yet to remove the failed HD format from DVDSP4 and replace it with BlueRay. I use DVDSP for all of my authoring (SD up to now), and have yet to learn how to migrate a high-definition project from DVDSP to a BluRay burner for client use.
You would think with the popularity of this application, and their immense amount of money on hand, they could fix this with an update…..but NOOOOO…they are too busy selling I-Phones.

P

[Craig Seeman]

[Patrick McLoad] “Perhaps the answer is to just have $5,000 worth of SxS cards and not transfer ANYTHING.”

I really think people are being overly paranoid about SDHC. That’s because they’re cutting more corners than they should.
Update to current firmware which has GREATLY improved SDHC reliability. Then get the BEST possible cards. Current Sandisk Extreme Class 10 from a RELIABLE dealer. Then you can buy enough cards so you never have to transfer during a shoot.

Currently $182.50 after rebate which is less than 1/4 the price of equivalent SxS
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/617061-REG/SanDisk_SDSDX3_032G_A31_32GB_Extreme_SDHC_Memory.html

People have problems when they cut corners by getting Transcend cards or from other manufacturers.

[Patrick McLoad] “Why in the world would Sony title their software “Transfer” when it has nothing to do with transferring files? I quote from the XDCAM EX Workflows manual for FCP: “To archive media from an SxS card to hard disc or other media, the Sony XDCAM EX Clip Browser application MUST (underlined) be used”.”

Sony software names are certainly counter intuitive.

ClipBrowser on Mac is primarily used for copy, split, combine BPAV for backup purposes. On Windows many use it to rewrap to MXF. It also has logging functions.

XDCAM Transfer for rewrap to MOV for FCP. It also has logging functions.

There’s also a rumor that this two tool division may be changing in the future.

[Patrick McLoad] “I bought an overpriced $300 piece of Sony junk, the SBAC-US10 SxS Memory Card USB Reader/Writer. Hasn’t worked yet, and I can’t trust it as far as I can throw it.”

It’s always worked for me. It’s specific to SxS cards which are PCIe based and not the USB adaptors one uses for SDHC. For many this device has become more important since Apple dropped the Express port (which can handle SxS directly) on the 15″ MacBookPro. Of course including SDHC slots makes using that workflow even easier . . . and another reason why I recommend it.

[Patrick McLoad] “But you’re right…one of these days it’s gonna bite us, and I can’t imagine how that conversation will go with the client, informing him that we only have half of the footage shot. Oh, and that expensive set-up for the CEO? It’s gone too. Yet one more reason for expensive production insurance.”

All this is in the process of changing. Note that the JVC HM series which use EX codec records to SDHC (good) and MOV (bad IMHO) although you can add SxS adaptor and record BPAV.

The future:
Sony’s next round of cameras may have SDHC built in.
Apple’s next FCS update will have direct codec support.

[Craig Seeman]

[Patrick McLoad] “To further muddy the water, Apple has yet to remove the failed HD format from DVDSP4 and replace it with BlueRay.”

A worthy topic unto itself. To keep in OnTopic I’d call it EX XDCAM HD Client Delivery.

I truly understand Steve Jobs’ sentiments about Blu-ray . . . as a consumer viewing format.
Everywhere where good broadband is available (and that’s one catch) download for consumer viewing will surpass discs.

But we’re content creator dealing with client delivery. Blu-ray is a back up method. There’s no issue with that given the number of third party internal and external Blu-ray burners. Actually I’d prefer it that way if Apple overcharges for it like their other BTO options. BTW 100GB Blu-ray is on the way and you’ll need to buy a new burner for that. Sigh!

What Apple hasn’t done is offer an alternative DELIVERY method for HD content.
YouTube can handle 1080p and even 4K (!!!) for viewing but I wouldn’t call YouTube professional delivery.
MobileMe has a 2GB file size limit so it doesn’t allow for long form delivery.

The problem is though that most clients who need “product” for distribution don’t trust the market penetration of Blu-ray players and I can’t blame them.

What Apple really needs to do is create MobileMePro for high end (large file) delivery, screening, cloud distribution.

______
When I’ve had to deliver files to clients I’ve given them BPAV burned to Blu-ray or hard drive, Apple ProRes which is universal now that it can be played/used on both Windows and Mac and doesn’t require FCP as the decoder is a freely distributable Quicktime Component. For quick screening I can use Vimeo or ExposureRoom (no duration limit but there’s still the file size limit) with password protection.

If they’re just playing back for presentation, they only need a good H.264 encode rather than a Blu-ray disc. There are many inexpensive Media File players now if they don’t want to be tied to a laptop.

The only time clients ask for playable disc they’ve asked me for DVD as they don’t yet trust Blu-ray market penetration (as I note above).

I agree that Blu-ray is a transitional format for delivery but a clear professional alternative hasn’t been established.

Blu-ray, LTO, XDCAM disc as data are probably the best non destructive archival means at the moment (which doesn’t mean any are ideal) so we need a better alternative there as well.

In short:
We need Professional File Based Delivery
We need Professional File based Backup (better than current technology)

[Steve Connor]

The workflow is reliable and relatively straightforward, I have been working with EX and FCP since the EX1 first came out with NO file problems at all. Like any new system you just need to know how it works,.

I would recommend anyone who is buying an EX camera to research the workflow thoroughly BEFORE you invest in the kit. there are plenty of courses available out there.

Hopefully any new FCP will make it a little easier, but I also understand Sony may be working on a more unified piece of software for XDcam

[Ron Pestes]

I know this will make some people shudder but here is my work flow. I use XDCAM Trasfer and copy the complete contents of the cards to two seperate drives and then just start FCP and go to work. I have never had a corrupt file and the extra work is not worth it. What about tape and all the problems we used to deal with when their was no back up for a bad tape with drop outs etc. That was much more likely than a corrupt file yet we all lived to work another day. I think everyone is too paranoid about loosing data. It is so rare it is not worth worring about. Just my opinion, I’m sure to hear the other side in the next post! LOL!

Apple Certified Master Pro FCS 2
Sony EX-3
MacBook Pro

[Patrick Mcload]

Let me first apologize for coming to this advanced forum and complaining like a newbie. No doubt, my frustration is born simply out of lack of knowledge and experience with the applications, terminology, and work flows.

I understand that for all practical purposes, “Transfer” requires your media to be connected and accessible, either by camera itself or via a card reader. It also seems to be geared towards importing clips into FCP, which I can do okay.

But there is just stuff I seem to not understand. For example, when a SxS card is in the reader, and I can view and play all clips, then all is well. There’s the menu option to “Import All Clips” (and button). Selecting this seems to put all clips in a task que, and it looks as though each clip is being imported from the card onto the computer….but I can never find these files after the SxS card has been ejected. So I don’t know what’s up with that. Perhaps they all need to live in a BPAV folder, and the only way to do this is with Clip Browser, not Transfer. I don’t yet see how anyone can save clips from an SxS card using Transfer….that is unless into FCP.

Don’t mind me, I’ll find my own way through this.

P