Is Pro-Res still an option for archiving?

[Pat Horridge]

Yes you can go the other way but unless it’s lossless you are compromising quality. Will that be visible today? Maybe not but will it suffer when uprezzed in 6 years time? Too bad if it does as you have made that choice.
Also you have issues with concatenation of codecs if you use another long GOP codec as a archive method.

Pat Horridge
Broadcast & Post Consultant, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
Free online Tutorials at VET digital media academy online https://vimeo.com/channels/752951
pat@vet.co.uk

[Robert Withers]

Thanks, Pat,
This is interesting. So we can go from a compressed camera codec to a mezzanine codec without (unacceptable) loss of quality but we can’t reverse this to go back to a camera codec literally or another more compressed codec without loss. “Concatenation of codecs” is poetry but I don’t understand the issue . Or at least what the issue would be if you went from an intra codec like ProRes back to a long-GOP codec. I do read that ProRes is itself a lossy compression system. Hmmn.
Cheers,
Robert

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City

[Pat Horridge]

Your camera codec will have introduced some losses based on the day rate etc. But you can’t do much about that (some use external recorders to avoid compressed codecs)

Pat Horridge
Broadcast & Post Consultant, Trainer, Avid Certified Instructor
Free online Tutorials at VET digital media academy online https://vimeo.com/channels/752951
pat@vet.co.uk

[Eric Strand]

ProRes is lossy technically, but it’s visually lossless; thousands of people around the world are using and archiving with it.

Camera files that are “small” use Long GOP compression and probably 4:2:0 color subsampling. Using an ALL-I codec means you’re back in the range of ProRes data rates, in which case just store and archive in ProRes and FFV1. ProRes so you can keep using it for at least the foreseeable future; FFV1 because it’s open source.

@ericstrand11

[Peter Malling]

@Robert Withers, I found this old thread and I’m curious to hear what you ended up doing?

I would like to archive my 200h super8/mini-dv/vhs video in a format that’s also suitable for editing, as encoding to a new codec takes many hours for just one videotape on my rather outdated computer. And also just for simplicity. I don’t get the idea of archiving in both ProRes AND FFV1 – that brings up the total storage to a level where you could just as well save it all in an uncompressed format.

All together I’ve been surprised by the large file sizes even for compressed files with these lossless or near-lossless codecs. When starting digitizing I thought H.264 would be just fine, and that’s also what most home movie digitizers use. But it would be a pity to realize that in 5-10 years valuable info has been lost that could have been used for new technology that may appear, to utilize the old footage in new ways. I expect that AI-based tools that can bring old footage up to perfect quality will appear in few years.

[Robert Withers]

Hi Peter,
I haven’t done anything, since I don’t have any special needs outside of maintaining my own backups.

However, there are interesting discussions with some controversy that relate to the Apple ProRes codec and maybe some risks of proprietary codecs.

Here are two things:
!st from Larry Jordan,
Earlier today, Richard W. sent me this question: “Something came up that I [need explained.] …The auto-update on my MacBook Air Mojave prompted me to update iMovie from version 10.1.1 to 10.1.11 with the curious message: ‘Detects media files that may be incompatible with future versions of macOS and converts them to a compatible format…. I really hate the idea of any software converting my media files without my clear understanding and approval so I didn’t update this iMovie software… I wonder if you know anything about this?”

Yes, and it is critically important that you understand the answer. Apple has deprecated all codecs based on QuickTime 7. If you upgrade to the next version of macOS AFTER Mojave, media using these codecs WILL NOT PLAY and CANNOT be converted! In other words, if you ignore this warning and upgrade, you are screwed. (Here’s an article that explains what is happening.)

What Apple has done, before the next OS upgrade, is provide a conversion utility in Final Cut, iMovie, Compressor, and Motion that recognizes these out-of-date codecs and converts them into something more future-proof; specifically ProRes 422. What this feature does is recognize when you’ve opened media which will soon be obsolete and gives you the ability to convert it.

This conversion is NOT automatic, nor behind-the-scenes. You have to click OK for the conversion to occur. However, if you DON’T convert your media, you will not be able to upgrade to the next version of macOS. (Here are two articles illustrating this conversion process in Final Cut Pro X and Compressor. Compressor is more flexible.)

Please, to prevent future problems, read my background article above and these newer ones showing how this process works. Because, once you upgrade macOS, you can’t go back and you can’t play your older media. Also, if you are debating what to do, please turn OFF automatic updating of your system. Here’s an article that explains how. This will prevent unexpected, and unpleasant, surprises.

2nd — I got complex responses to posting this on a list of archivists. Some disagreed with Larry and one posted this link: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209000

My solution until the dust clears: keep a machine that runs Mojave for future needs.

Good luck!

Robert

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City