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Is Oliver Peters wrong?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Don’t you mean the opposite?”
No, I was talking in the sense that the app and the OS are all part of single unit. I didn’t necessarily mean “project” in the literal FCP sense.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Not if you quit FCPX, take the project out of the Final Cut Pro Project folder and reload. In my testing, Roles are project specific, if the project isn’t loaded upon FCPX launch, then that Role isn’t loaded.”
I stand corrected. I haven’t done much moving around of projects since the update. I was going by Apple’s docs that cautioned against randomly naming Roles.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “I stand corrected. I haven’t done much moving around of projects since the update. I was going by Apple’s docs that cautioned against randomly naming Roles.”
Yeah, the manual is unclear about this. From what I can gather by testing it a little, Roles seem to travel with a project.
Jeremy
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no need for bussing for tracks what I am talking about is grouping of elements so you can put a set of meters that arent VU meters on the output of a “role” or total final mix
and for such a crucial thing the compound clip solution is a fudge and gets in the waythe copy paste thing makes the software unusable for onlining material, it needs granualarity badly. In fact this is the killer feature of FCP7 and other apple software like aperture, try doing it on an Avid its a pain
seeing clips in sync is really important it shouldnt be the case that breaking apart audio and visuals causes such problems, the only fix I have was to match frame back to source clip in event browser
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I think I might know what you are referring to here. First of all, welcome to NTSC. What FCPX does right is calculate tc from what NTSC is, a time fraction. 29.97 fps is really 30000/1001 fps, so accuracy is FCPX is better than FCP Legac”
So now you need to take the calculator?
That makes no sense unless you go to a free Time-base agnostic system.
The day that you will be able to shot 73fps with your camera, you will need that kind of calculations.
If NTSC timing starts to be a problem in 2.011 we are going well.
Is that difficult for FCPX understand what is a frame?[Jeremy Garchow] ” After all tc is frame by frame metadata, isn’t it? All cameras calculate their tc this way, why shouldn’t an NLE?”
That’s really funny
TC (LTC and VTC ) exists before PCs and before somebody invented the word Metadata.
LTC is a sophisticated audio track, while VITC is part of the very video signal.
Apple is creating a video-agnostic application, but lets don’t change the reality and lets don’t confuse people. That manufacturers adapts the terminology and concepts for marketing purposes is to understand. That skilled professionals accept it or defend it, not.[Jeremy Garchow] “Its completely different. How do you express a compound clip in an EDL? It is not a word for word translation.”
What a heck is “compound clip”?
Is it something very different than a “nest”?
Contains something different that pictures in a certain order?
Of course an EDL wouldn’t be the way, but something more sophisticated.
The translator of course is possible. The price, probably more than the very FCPX, because will be left to third part developers.
rafael -
Mark Dobson
For me to move to another editing system such as Premier Pro would involve a large investment in time and being a bear with a small brain I would get pretty confused if I was to start using different packages to do different jobs.I agree with not wanting to use different packages for different jobs (although having a broad knowledge of software is always advantageous) but as FCPX is a new NLE anyway, isn’t learning Premiere Pro or Media Composer just exactly the same amount of effort as learning X? Given this, why choose X over MC or Premiere and why do you think Apple would put us in a position where we have to make this choice?
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Hi Herb,
I think you’re right, it is important to see where and how X is being used and to what avail, but as a freelancer really my main consideration is ‘are post houses using it?’ If so, then so will I, if not what’s the point?
Has anyone walked in to a post facility and seen X in use, or been asked if they can use it on a job? (in any field – broadcast, film, corporate).
Ben.
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[Rafael Amador] “So now you need to take the calculator?
That makes no sense unless you go to a free Time-base agnostic system.
The day that you will be able to shot 73fps with your camera, you will need that kind of calculations.
If NTSC timing starts to be a problem in 2.011 we are going well.
Is that difficult for FCPX understand what is a frame?”Rafa, I understand your pissed, brother. I get it. Apple let you down in some way.
What you are saying here isn’t making any sense. FCPX calculates time better than FCP7, and all this is invisible to the user. It does understand frames. You work in PAL which are whole frames. It’s all good. For us NTSC shlubs, FCPX represents better accuracy. To me, there’s nothing wrong with that. I will find the post about how thus is done later.
[Rafael Amador] “TC (LTC and VTC ) exists before PCs and before somebody invented the word Metadata.”
So, I’m wrong? Tc isn’t data about data? Because tc can be carried over analog audio doesn’t mean it’s data? Metadata didn’t exist before the PC? A pie chart is metadata. I dint think I am overstepping any bounds here.
[Rafael Amador] “Apple is creating a video-agnostic application, but lets don’t change the reality and lets don’t confuse people. That manufacturers adapts the terminology and concepts for marketing purposes is to understand. That skilled professionals accept it or defend it, not. “
Can you explain what you mean here? Video agnostic? Manufacturers?
[Rafael Amador] “What a heck is “compound clip”?
Is it something very different than a “nest”?
Contains something different that pictures in a certain order?”No, they are similar. Cant have nests in EDLs either. Do you use EDLs and how?
[Rafael Amador] “The translator of course is possible. The price, probably more than the very FCPX, because will be left to third part developers.”
Would you pay for it if you needed it?
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Rafa, I understand your pissed, brother. I get it. Apple let you down in some way.
“
Yes Jeremy. Very pissed.
You would be pissed if Apple had thrown to the toilet years of your savings.
To buy my ioHD and my Sapphire and Re-Vision plugins, in a place where everything costs double and where wages are 10 times lower than where you are, has been really hard. I’ve got it only sacrificing holidays, or the kayak I want to buy since years (I have the mekong 200 meters from my house) or driving second hands cars (here we pay 100% taxes on cars. The best credit I could get here is something like a 19%, if could put a house as warranty. Here not exist mortgages). Not everybody lives around Cupertino.I’ve to mention that I don’t edit since one year, and I don’t know if I’ll do it in the future (may be this is why I’ve been lately so picky in the forum -and probably out :-), so, NLEs are not my main concern.
But I’m pissed by the absolute disrespect of Apple to thousand of people like me all around the world.I’m pissed also, because Apple NOW release information that have been holding for years just to discredit FCP in front of FCPX:
WHITE PAPERS FCPX for FCP Editors Pg 20: Export QT Movie is 8b ( I guess means QT Conversion). I wanted that statement few years ago.But in the end i’m pissed because the could have done an really AWESOME application with best of both, but, just to be different, they decided to eliminated a fashion of editing that works, and will work forever because is NATURAL. And a board that allows to have a full picture at once.
Rafael.
PS: I add the next considerations without any intention of further discussions.
I’d rather have some beers with you 🙂[Jeremy Garchow] “[Rafael Amador] “So now you need to take the calculator?
That makes no sense unless you go to a free Time-base agnostic system.
The day that you will be able to shot 73fps with your camera, you will need that kind of calculations.
If NTSC timing starts to be a problem in 2.011 we are going well.
Is that difficult for FCPX understand what is a frame?”What you are saying here isn’t making any sense. FCPX calculates time better than FCP7, and all this is invisible to the user. It does understand frames. You work in PAL which are whole frames. It’s all good. For us NTSC shlubs, FCPX represents better accuracy. To me, there’s nothing wrong with that. I will find the post about how thus is done later.”
I understand quite well the timing problems of NTSC (you can’t understand PAL without passing first by NTSC).
FCP has had only problems to mix video standards and to identify files Time bases but FCP never had any problem to manage any time-base. Even less with stills, that are has not any kind of Time-base. in years around the forum i’ve never heard “FC is making my stills shorter, or longer”.
Sincerely, I can’t understand why FCPX can’t calculate the duration of ONE FRAME (the most basic concept of filming: One photogram) up to Project settings, so you can set a “3 frames duration” and FCPX does the rest.
Is difficult for FCPX to look at the project setting and calculate the frames duration by him self?You talk about more precision, so can you tell me how to set 1 FRAME DURATION(1/ (30.000/1001) = 0,33366..) for your stills, when you can set just Seconds with 2 fractions (x,xx)?
What happens if you set “Still Duration: 0,04” (bit longer than a frame in NTSC)?
Will FCPX write a bit of the still on top of the next frame?
And if you set the still duration: 0,02?
Will FCPX write just 2/3 of the frame?[Jeremy Garchow] “[Rafael Amador] “TC (LTC and VTC ) exists before PCs and before somebody invented the word Metadata.”
So, I’m wrong? Tc isn’t data about data? Because tc can be carried over analog audio doesn’t mean it’s data? Metadata didn’t exist before the PC? A pie chart is metadata. I dint think I am overstepping any bounds here.”
That’s the point. You see, you consider VIDEO as just DATA. I can’t.
I can consider video as an electric signal (old definition: 1V peak to peak), or as a piece of a story to be told, but not as data.
I can’t make that abstraction. I’m notThe LTC not only can be carried over analog audio; is originally an analog audio track.
TC is not data about data but a clock signal with some important features (OK, meaningless today) beside the HH/MM/SS/FF info.
TC wasn’t developed for NLE, but for synchronizing VTR (which at the time used a crappy CTL). TC wasn’t designed for editing precision.
I don’t know if you ever have edited with something like I”C or U-matic or you’ve ever heard of the so called “Color Framing” that made life of PAL editors way harder than those in NTSC. Before Betacam, you (NTSC) had just a 50% chances of cutting right in the frames you wanted, while in PAL we had only a 25% accuracy due to the Chroma Phase.
NLE (analog) was an obvious application.
The only think you could consider kind of Metadata on TC, where the “User Bits”.[Jeremy Garchow] “[Rafael Amador] “The translator of course is possible. The price, probably more than the very FCPX, because will be left to third part developers.”
Would you pay for it if you needed it?”
Sure, I’d pay it for if I’d really needed it, although my experience with translators has been ver disappointing.
AutomatickDuck came bundled when I bought Combustion3 years ago (AutoDesks let us down too) and the truth is that never worked.
That was in 2005 and I guess that now works, but what I may do in AE or Combustion is not that complicated to justify 600 bucks.
I’ve been sending things to Shake or using “PopCorn Island” to pass things to AE.
But was not really necessary for the kind of work I do, so paying 600 bucks -
[Rafael Amador] “I’ve to mention that I don’t edit since one year, and I don’t know if I’ll do it in the future (may be this is why I’ve been lately so picky in the forum -and probably out :-), so, NLEs are not my main concern.”
Hi Rafa
The best thing to be said about a mid-life crisis, whether from internal or external circumstances, is that it is just that – mid-life. Life goes on… 🙂
/GlassHalfFull modeIt is the job of an GUI to present complex mathematical data in a user-friendly way – 1 frame at a time if its rasterised video, and 1 pixel etc..
But because of the need to have sub-frame/sub-pixel accuracy the GUI needs to hide the 1.000000000 nature of one video frame, whilst letting me make a sample-level audio edit at 1.123456769 or whatever.
(Being of the same mind as Rafa means I have no off-the-top-of-my-head notion of how many significant digits I need to specify an audio sample accurately – that’s the GUI’s job…)The heart of FCP legacy’s (=QT’s) media management problems came from its treatment of time-code exactly the same as linear tape’s control track counter methodology. Only the first frame seemed to have been t/c stamped, and then an offset counter for the rest of the clip.
For that reason FCP legacy (+QT) had to go. Whether FCPX (AVFoundation) is any better I don’t know…
Its unfortunate that at this time of revolutionary change in technical methodologies that Apple’s CEO had other things dictating the need to move things along (too) fast 🙁
[Rafael Amador] “…so, NLEs are not my main concern.”
Neither were they for Steve. 🙁Are Lao Nagas the same as the ones in NE India?
I fell in love with Manipur on a visit earlier this year – might try to go a bit further sometime to buy you that beer… 🙂 -
[Rafael Amador] “You would be pissed if Apple had thrown to the toilet years of your savings.”
Yes.
[Rafael Amador] “To buy my ioHD and my Sapphire and Re-Vision plugins, in a place where everything costs double and where wages are 10 times lower than where you are, has been really hard. I’ve got it only sacrificing holidays, or the kayak I want to buy since years (I have the mekong 200 meters from my house) or driving second hands cars (here we pay 100% taxes on cars. The best credit I could get here is something like a 19%, if could put a house as warranty. Here not exist mortgages). Not everybody lives around Cupertino.”
Absolutely. I am not sure if those plugins will rewrite themselves for FCPX, but I bet they will. What do you use out of the revision offerings?
[Rafael Amador] “I’m pissed also, because Apple NOW release information that have been holding for years just to discredit FCP in front of FCPX:
WHITE PAPERS FCPX for FCP Editors Pg 20: Export QT Movie is 8b ( I guess means QT Conversion). I wanted that statement few years ago.”This has been known, though for a long time. It’s really easy to test.
[Rafael Amador] “FCP has had only problems to mix video standards and to identify files Time bases but FCP never had any problem to manage any time-base. “
I find this to not be true. FCP Legacy improperly tagged frame rates all the time on audio files (even ones with tc) causing major sync issues. It said you need a frame rate of 23.98, but really 23.976 is needed, and that causes issues as well. X intends to shore up that problem. It rounds to the frame for display (as do cameras) but the timing is way more accurate. This is good. The old method started with a tc number, then did the math in frames, which is less accurate and not as good. Here’s a discussion on it:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/16076
[Rafael Amador] “Will FCPX write a bit of the still on top of the next frame?
And if you set the still duration: 0,02?
Will FCPX write just 2/3 of the frame?”How do you think cameras do this? Do you think they record fractional frames? No. They just playback at a fractional frame rate, but the whole frames are there. FCPX also calculates times vs frames this way.
[Rafael Amador] “That’s the point. You see, you consider VIDEO as just DATA. I can’t.
I can consider video as an electric signal (old definition: 1V peak to peak), or as a piece of a story to be told, but not as data.
I can’t make that abstraction. I’m not “Well, I don’t know really what to say here. In a digital world everything is data, even the video “signal”. It’s packed, sent and unpacked via 1.5 or 3 Gbps SDI. By it’s very nature, it’s a data stream, and a very fast one. TC is now a digital signal with rp188. It’s a data track. Tapeless formats are all data. I think FCPX approaches this concept very well. I like it, maybe some don’t. It is very rare that we have just one camera on a shoot anymore, it’s very often three, if not four. Cameras have become specialized tools as well, certain job, certain tool. FCPX helps to combine all of this easily, then manage it easily, and I am very grateful for this.
[Rafael Amador] ” don’t know if you ever have edited with something like I”C or U-matic or you’ve ever heard of the so called “Color Framing” that made life of PAL editors way harder than those in NTSC. Before Betacam, you (NTSC) had just a 50% chances of cutting right in the frames you wanted, while in PAL we had only a 25% accuracy due to the Chroma Phase.
NLE (analog) was an obvious application.
The only think you could consider kind of Metadata on TC, where the “User Bits”.”And this relationship has evolved in digital transmission. TC is still used to sync, but it might not just be VTRs, but all recording devices. Timing/sync is of course still very crucial, and it also offers data (information) about the video and audio to a human that is legible and usable to help guide the edit process.
[Rafael Amador] “That was in 2005 and I guess that now works, but what I may do in AE or Combustion is not that complicated to justify 600 bucks.
I’ve been sending things to Shake or using “PopCorn Island” to pass things to AE.
But was not really necessary for the kind of work I do, so paying 600 bucks”I’ve used Autoduck AE Import for a very long time. It has always worked remarkably well. On the X side and from initial tests, Foolcut works well and is 1/4 of the price of the Legacy equivalent. It takes in to account almost all of FCPXs new methodology, and this was before there was a proper language released. This to me, bodes well for translation in the future. CatDV already has a FCP7 to FCPX translation in place, it’s not perfect, but translation rarely is.
Jeremy
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