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Is 23.98 always 23.976 in disguise?
Does the “23.98” frame rate even exist?
Is anything truly shot/captured/rendered as 23.98?You may answer “yes of course, just look at the Clip info in final cut, your sequence setting, or movie inspector in quicktime – it says 23.98!”
I have a self taught background and I’ve tried to research this as much as possible – books, web, colleagues. The more I work in video the more I get the impression every display in every program on every VTR that says “23.98” is just abbreviating “23.976”
Is there any truth to that statement?Is a 23.98 FCP Sequence actually 23.976?
Is the 23.98 setting on the DVW-D2000 actually playing/recording at 23.976?This frustratingly confusing when an app comes along like After Effects that will actually let you make a comp that is any frame, including 23.98 and 23.976.
(a 23.98 render from AE will have frame jitter when played in a 23.98 sequence in FCP and eQ) -
10 Replies
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I believe 23.98 is shorthand for 23.976. The more important question is, if this is NOT the case – if they ARE different things, in other words – is there rounding going on. My inclinations is to say that this is not the case. Actual rounding would be mathematically disastrous, especially on long shows. Presume 23.976.
Reid C
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[Reid Caulfield] “I believe 23.98 is shorthand for 23.976.”
Indeed!!! That is the case…
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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You are teaching yourself well. 29.97 is really 29.970. If you enter 23.98 in any other program other than final cut, it will mess up your movie as it should really be 23.976 and that includes Quicktime. But you already know that.
23.98 just rolls off the tongue a bit better I guess.
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Though I haven’t tried it in awhile, and being as how my main audio environment of choice is Nuendo (as opposed to Pro Tools, which I also use), I remember the first time I did a “23.98” project in Nuendo. Slight drift all the way through due to the discrepancy, but there was no other choice, as I recall. The app allowed for entering a rate in the field but wouldn’t go more than 2 decimal places. Resulted in me having to do cuts every minute or 2 & move audio by subframes to keep absolute sync. They seem to have fixed it. That’s the kind of havoc the second & third decimal places can play. Thanks for the affirmation of the 23.98/23.976 question.
Reid C
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[Jeremy Garchow] “23.98 just rolls off the tongue a bit better I guess. “
then what do we do with Sony?
they shorten it in the display menus in many of their cameras to just 23.9….
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD -
[gary adcock] “they shorten it in the display menus in many of their cameras to just 23.9….”
That rolls off the tongue even better!
I know why we can’t, but it’s still too bad we couldn’t just have standardized to whole frame rates when moving to HD.
We can rebuild him, we have the technology.
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Thanks all for the confirmation!
All the abbreviation in formats and framerates really gets annoying.
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I believe that 23.976 is also a rounded number. For simplicity’s sake we calculate 24-.024=23.976 and 60-.060=59.94 but the actual formulas are 24×1000/1001=23.976024 and 60×1000/1001=59.940060. So 23.98 can be seen as the correct frame listing to round all rates from six decimal places to two.
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That just blew my mind. Thanks!
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Here are shorter formulas…
What we write: FrameRate*.999
What is precise: FrameRate/1.001
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