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I wish FCPX adopted these Premiere Pro features
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[Scot Walker] “Trying to learn and also help …”
Thanks. I appreciate the offer, but just so we are clear, I’ve been working with FCP X since 10.0. I do have a pretty good handle on how it works. I don’t say that to be snotty, but simply so you know my experience with X.
[Scot Walker] ” Click on Modify Settings next to Storage Locations”
I know that, but the default is always back to the User > Movies folder, unless you set up a target location with each new Library. There needs to be a pref setting for default location, or it should default to the last location saved. For example, in none of the work I edit, do I want the Libraries saved to the internal boot drive (if I can help it) and definitely not in the User > Movies folder.
[Scot Walker] “Libraries are self contained and have all the media inside that and so if you want to duplicate or move, etc., you just use the Finder.”
Actually I never let clips reside in the Library. This is a very poor way to work for many projects. Using the Finder negates the whole concept of a properly designed application. I realize there are in-app move and copy functions, but these aren’t as straightforward as an actual “save as”. I think this boils down to Apple’s across-the-board dropping of “save as” in nearly all of its applications.
[Scot Walker] “What does “with transcode and trim functions” mean? “
This means I want an archive file of only the clips that are in the edited sequence, plus X amount of handle length on the front and back of each clip. Not the full-length media clip. Therefore, the media clips have to be trimmed. Optionally I might want them all transcoded to an optimized codec. And by optimized, I don’t just mean ProRes.
[Scot Walker] “FCP X has always had integration with Motion. A Motion project is saved as a Generator and that shows up in your Generator tab in FCP X. Motion allows you to save as FCP X templates too.”
While Motion has become a nice effects creator that works in tandem with FCPX, we lost the “send to” functionality that existed between FCP 7 and Motion. Namely, if I wanted to send 5 clips as a group from an FCP X project to Motion for some sort of composited effect, I cannot do that. I used to be able to do that and I can now do that between Premiere Pro and After Effects.
[Scot Walker] “If you want to apply an effect to the entire project, select your main timeline and turn it into a compound and then apply your limiter and compressor on that.”
This is a workaround. In this scenario, if you need to interactively work with clip volumes and the master volume and compression, you cannot do it. You have to step into the compound and make adjustments without the benefit of hearing or metering the result through the compression/limiting effect.
[Scot Walker] “Expanding the audio of any clip allows you to manually edit it and it ignores your transitions.”
To clarify, I like to work with audio dissolves. Once you expand and move the audio edit points around you lose the ability to add audio dissolves. You have to fiddle around with fade handles, which is far too mousey compared with FCP7, PPro, Avid MC.
[Scot Walker] “FCP X automatically renders and replaces in the background. It’s optimizing your project to ProRes all the time.”
Actually no, this is not the same. This is background rendering and FCP X has been notorious about losing render file links in various versions since its beginning. Some versions are good and then the next version breaks it. In addition, FCP X render files are stored as AV Foundation formatted media, which are externally unaccessible by any other application.
What I’m talking about is a specific Premiere function called “render and replace”. Let’s say I have a very complex composite that I’ve built and rendered. It’s on the FCP X timeline as a compound clip. If I alter it or add a connected clip over it, the render is broken and now I have a deep re-render that has to happen.
In Premiere Pro, the equivalent might be a Dynamic Link clip on the timeline. This is a nested After Effects composition. Having that sit there unrendered will bog down performance. If you render & replace, the composite is replaced by a new piece of media that is not simply just a render file. It’s an accessible .mov in whatever format you designate. This clip includes metadata that connects it back to the original. So If I want to re-edit it by going back to the AE comp (in the FCP X scenario, go back to the compound) the metadata links this clips back to its original much like a match frame or stepping into a compound.
I hope that clarifies my points. Thanks.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Scot Walker] “I was responding to your comment ” Get rid of the unnecessary angles in the finished timeline” and that’s just not the case. You never ever see unused angles in the main timeline.”
While you don’t see them, it’s still media that has to be accessed from the hard drives, in the event that you want to cut to another angle. It is always being tracked in the background. Once you are done cutting angles, then there’s no point in the application tracking these angles. FCP7 had a nice system of collapse/uncollapse multicam clips.
[Scot Walker] “In regards to a multicam clip having issues with audio, what are your issues? And how did you “break the item apart”? I’m not really sure how you do that. Maybe I can help”
It’s a problem I ran into last year. I forget the exact details now, but the bottom line was that I couldn’t get audio over to the Pro Tools mixer. Most clips came up with the wrong sync or clips that were only a few frames in length. A combination of “break items apart” and match-framing to the source and replacing the clips on the timeline was the fix that worked.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Jeff Markgraf] “Avid runs fine on the BMD/TerraBlock systems, and seems fine on the MBPro and MacPro tube. Doesn’t feel as smooth as on an Avid with Nitris or Mojo I/O. I think there’s a secret sauce that Avid withheld when they opened it up to 3rd party video cards. (Frankly, none of the newer systems feels as lightning fast as the old ABVB Avids running on OS9 back in the day. But then, very few systems seem to run that fast anymore. Not that I’d want to go back to Meridien boards and shuttle docks…)”
Avid systems have always been better with their own hardware. That’s not because anything was held back, but because they have to work with third parties via an abstraction layer, same as Adobe does with Mercury Transmit. The hooks into the hardware can simply be better and deeper, because that hardware is purpose built to only work with Avid systems.
I definitely agree on ABVB OS9 Avid. I would also say that this includes being better in terms of rock & roll responsiveness to any version of FCP or Premiere Pro, ever. But those were simpler systems that only had to deal with PAL or NTSC and there was no such thing as file-based camera media.
As far as networks, I haven’t had good experiences with X across a SAN network. It’s been OK, but laggy. Premiere has been better and so has Avid. The roadblock there seems to be the fact that with every action you take in X, there’s constant file access to write updates to the drives. This makes for far more network traffic and therefore some lag.
When I’ve cut with X on a network, I’ve had better results keeping the library local (though media may be on a network volume). Then when I’m done, move the X library file to the SAN for safe-keeping and access. OTOH, with Premiere, I work at a few shops, where everything is on a SAN and I often move between rooms, starting a job in one room and continuing it in another. The biggest issue they run into is keeping the CC version updated to the same version on all machines and proper permissions in a shared PC/Mac environment. By comparison Avid MC on Isis/Unity is a dream.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
Another reason for flattening multicam is timecode. When you create a new mcam clip, it assumes the TC from one of the angles or a custom code you designate. When you cut this into the timeline, the source code is that of the mcam clip, not of the source angle used in the cut. Ultimately you want the source clips to reflect the proper TC that matches the original clip (the media essence).
Often you will not have matching code for all angles. If camera A has 12 hr TC and camera B has 14 hr TC, but you set the multicam clip with 12 hr TC, then there are issues with B-cam angles, should you need to link by code.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Herb Sevush] “Romeo has nothing on you.”
I laughed out loud – thank you…
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[Oliver Peters] “While you don’t see them, it’s still media that has to be accessed from the hard drives, in the event that you want to cut to another angle”
On my system, it’s only accessed in the angle editor.
[Oliver Peters] “bottom line was that I couldn’t get audio over to the Pro Tools mixer”
That sucks. I don’t use Pro Tools so I got nothing.
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[Oliver Peters] “, I’ve been working with FCP X since 10.0. I do have a pretty good handle on how it works. I don’t say that to be snotty, but simply so you know my experience with X.”
Yeah, I appreciate that. I’ve been using it since 10.0 too. I still learn new tricks.
[Oliver Peters] “but the default is always back to the User > Movies folder, unless you set up a target location with each new Library”
For me, the default is in the Library.
[Oliver Peters] “For example, in none of the work I edit, do I want the Libraries saved to the internal boot drive (if I can help it) and definitely not in the User > Movies folder.”
You have the latest version of FCP X? I experience none of this.
You create a Library and when you do you get a “Save as…” dialogue. I pick my external Thunderbolt 2 RAID drive that reads 930 megs per second. The default for the Media, Cache, and Backup are always “In Library”. So that means it will be stored in that Library file on the external drive.
[Oliver Peters] “Actually I never let clips reside in the Library. This is a very poor way to work for many projects”
I’m not really following you here. I create a Library and I get a Save As… dialogue and I put it on my fast external drive. I then create an Event inside that Library for each wedding. The media and the project files are located in each Event. That’s the way it is designed to be used.
Now you can link to your media instead of copying it into the event, but I copy it into the event, which is inside the library, because this allows me to just drag and drop the library to any drive I want or onto the network and everything is inside of it. There is no way to have a broken link.
How is this a poor way to work? Thanks.
[Oliver Peters] “While Motion has become a nice effects creator that works in tandem with FCPX, we lost the “send to” functionality that existed between FCP 7 and Motion. Namely, if I wanted to send 5 clips as a group from an FCP X project to Motion for some sort of composited effect, I cannot do that”
Ahhh, yes. They definitely need to add that. It takes the extra step of selecting Reveal In Finder and then importing it into Motion. I use the clips as a guide in Motion and then export out a generator without the clip and lay it over the clips. This allows me to just select “Open in Motion” inside FCP X to go to Motion to make edits.
Another annoyance is when you make that edit in Motion and save, it doesn’t update in the timeline in FCP X. You have to drag it back out from the generator palette.
[Oliver Peters] “This is a workaround. In this scenario, if you need to interactively work with clip volumes and the master volume and compression, you cannot do it. You have to step into the compound and make adjustments without the benefit of hearing or metering the result through the compression/limiting effect”
Good point.
[Oliver Peters] “In Premiere Pro, the equivalent might be a Dynamic Link clip on the timeline. This is a nested After Effects composition. Having that sit there unrendered will bog down performance. If you render & replace, the composite is replaced by a new piece of media that is not simply just a render file. It’s an accessible .mov in whatever format you designate. This clip includes metadata that connects it back to the original. So If I want to re-edit it by going back to the AE comp (in the FCP X scenario, go back to the compound) the metadata links this clips back to its original much like a match frame or stepping into a compound”
OK. If I have a generator in FCP X from Motion and it bogs down the playback of FCP X, I just select it and press CONTROL R and it renders it into a video clip that plays back in real time. If I take that generator and Open in Motion and edit it, then go back to FCP X, I have to press CONTROL R again to render it. So you are saying in Premiere Pro, you dont’ have to render an AE comp again after you’ve made changes to the original?
Thanks for taking time to explain. 🙂
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Scott,
you are working with managed media (when you let FCPX copy it to the library).
Yes, it’s all in one library, but…– it’s more difficult sharing projects between people who have the same set of media. All sharing is more difficult, except the fact of just handing someone over that big Library file. (It’s also more difficult to work with non-XSAN shared storage because if you need to copy the FCPX Library to your local drive, it will be gigabytes instead of megabytes).
– you cannot organise it on a Finder level the way you want. It becomes hidden in a FCPX package, sometimes with a name FCPX gives it.For instance, if you work with old XDCAM discs, they would often name the clips C001. If you organise it your way, you can have that all in seperate folders (DAY 01 – Clip C001, DAY 02 – Clip C002). If you have FCPX manage it, it’s in one giant folder hidden in the package, with just C001 (1), C001 (2) … If you have 10 like that, it gets very difficult to manage if something goes wrong.
– when working with RED RAW media, it’s easier to afterwards change RAW settings to your footage, and have it update in FCPX. That’s the whole point of the .RMD setting you can save with R3D media.
I think it’s good that FCPX provides both options, but I do think that not working with managed media is the best option in the most cases, because it’s the most flexible. There is a good PDF floating around somewhere about shared workflows on FCPX, and it also tells it’s best management NOT to copy into the Event. (EDIT: https://www.10dot1.co.uk/content/FCPXInASharedEnvironment_FINAL.pdf)
It’s not a bad workflow if you are very bad at organising your stuff (like some cameramen who are not used to organising their stuff and constantly used to have Media Offline messages in FCP7 – not talking about you necessarily) or if you are a complete one-man band. Even then, I would think an FCPX projects of gigabytes and gigabytes can be very unwieldy, and if it gets corrupted, it’s a more difficult problem potentially, with all your media inside.About FCPX saving automatically in the User-Movies folder: it does that at least when starting up for the first time with an Untitled project.
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[Mathieu Ghekiere] “it’s more difficult sharing projects between people who have the same set of media. All sharing is more difficult, except the fact of just handing someone over that big Library file”
I’m not saying I know best, I’m only sharing my workflow that works well for me. I’m totally open to learn different ways that might be better, though, so I appreciate your input.
To share, I just use the Consolidate command. For example, sending to color for a narrative film, I export the XML and then use the Consolidate command to an external drive and send it off. Works perfectly. If my media was external instead of managed, I’d export the XML and then copy the project folder to an external drive. Pretty much the same.
I’m not in a studio with multiple people on a network. I’m in a home studio. So I haven’t had to deal with sharing over a local network and I understand that SAN is very expensive. Apparently, you can share a Library on your network with NFS: https://www.doubleprecision.be/blog/2014/5/9/how-to-share-final-cut-pro-x-libraries-in-network-using-nfs
[Mathieu Ghekiere] “you cannot organise it on a Finder level the way you want. It becomes hidden in a FCPX package, sometimes with a name FCPX gives it”
I’ve never seen it rename the clips. My clips always come in with the filename and stay that way. Accessing the clip in the Finder is just right-clicking and selecting “Reveal In Finder”. Library folder hierarchy is pretty clear. There is a folder for each event, a folder for each project, an original media folder, etc.
[Mathieu Ghekiere] “when working with RED RAW media, it’s easier to afterwards change RAW settings to your footage, and have it update in FCPX”
FCP X has a “Modify RED RAW Settings” button under Info when you select a clip with color space, gamma, iso, kelvin, etc. inside FCP X. I cut a short narrative shot on a RED Epic in 5K wide 3:1 compression and used managed media and it worked really well. If you want to access those clips for external applications, you just right-click on it in FCP X and select Reveal In Finder whether FCP X is managing it or not.
I get projects from different people who organize their secondary sound and the video clips in different ways. If I have 3 days of footage on a cheap external hard drive that is given to me, I don’t have to figure out how they managed it. I don’t copy it to my drive via the Finder and then organize it the way I want. I had RED footage with its multiple folders and duplicates, and sound, and I just selected Day 1, Day 2, Day 3 at once and FCP X copied it to my Library for me with no RED folders (unlike Premiere Pro) and no duplicates. It creates a key word for folder names like Day 1, Day 2, Day 3 so if I want to isolate just Day 1’s media, you just click on that key word.
[Mathieu Ghekiere] “Even then, I would think an FCPX projects of gigabytes and gigabytes can be very unwieldy”
It’s the same amount of space if it’s managed or external.
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Hi Scott,
[Scot Walker] “I’m not saying I know best, I’m only sharing my workflow that works well for me. I’m totally open to learn different ways that might be better, though, so I appreciate your input.
To share, I just use the Consolidate command. For example, sending to color for a narrative film, I export the XML and then use the Consolidate command to an external drive and send it off. Works perfectly. If my media was external instead of managed, I’d export the XML and then copy the project folder to an external drive. Pretty much the same.
I’m not in a studio with multiple people on a network. I’m in a home studio. So I haven’t had to deal with sharing over a local network and I understand that SAN is very expensive. Apparently, you can share a Library on your network with NFS: https://www.doubleprecision.be/blog/2014/5/9/how-to-share-final-cut-pro-x-li...”
I didn’t think you were telling people you know better. I’m enjoying the input, and I’m sure you do too.
The consolidate command is very handy, and it kinds of makes sure that there is a way out if you choose external or managed media and want to choose the other option. Still, then you get folders with how FCPX calls your events and dates. If that’s how you organise, that’s fine, but if you do it in the Finder, you have more options about how to organize it to your suiting.
About the Library and NFS stuff: it’s a good option, but if I’m not mistaken (I know Filip from Double Precision a bit, we live in the same city :-)) it isn’t perfectly stable as of yet and there were some issues here and then. I could be wrong.
I hope you also check out the pdf about sharing workflows, it has a lot of interesting information.[Scot Walker] “I’ve never seen it rename the clips. My clips always come in with the filename and stay that way. Accessing the clip in the Finder is just right-clicking and selecting “Reveal In Finder”. Library folder hierarchy is pretty clear. There is a folder for each event, a folder for each project, an original media folder, etc.”
It does that if you work with managed media, and clips have the same name. Which is kind of logical, considering under the hood it puts it in one big folder, so if you have 2 clips with the same name, FCPX has to differentiate them on a Finder level.
[Scot Walker] “FCP X has a “Modify RED RAW Settings” button under Info when you select a clip with color space, gamma, iso, kelvin, etc. inside FCP X. I cut a short narrative shot on a RED Epic in 5K wide 3:1 compression and used managed media and it worked really well. If you want to access those clips for external applications, you just right-click on it in FCP X and select Reveal In Finder whether FCP X is managing it or not.”
Yes and no. FCPX has some options, but not all of the options that you find in REDCINE. It’s easier to go to a Finder folder, select the R3D’s and do some changes in REDCINE, then it is to first go into FCPX, click on Reveal in Finder, and then go and select those clips (one by one, depending on how you organised it) and then go and change those in REDCINE. And that’s the good thing about working with external RED RAW media and the RMD file. You change the file, and those changes travel together with that file, and multiple programs can easily access the SAME media, with the same changes to the RAW media.
[Scot Walker] “It’s the same amount of space if it’s managed or external.”
Of course, taking it as a whole. But the project file itself, the FCPX bundle. It’s easier to ‘throw’ it around when it’s a couple of megabytes, to send it to someone, etc. … instead of it being gigabytes big. Of course there is the Consolidate command as a kind of resque option, but I once you start working in a studio with multiple people, people offloading in a certain way in the finder, wanting to access that stuff from a normal server, and not digg into an FCPX bundle, the whole working with external media is more flexible.
That being said, I’m glad the whole ‘copy to Library’ option exists in FCPX and I’m sure it’s an easy media management tool for a lot of people.
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