I wanna do something like this.. Any ideas?

[Chris Blair]

I don’t see too many posts on this or any other shared storage forums about iscsi or SAS being used for shared video editing, with the exception of Avid DS Nitris and ProTools, which both require block-level file writing and iscsi can be a less expensive option compared to fibre channel.

From the reading I’ve done, they both also seem more complicated to setup and manage than either FC or GB ethernet. I know Editshare has an iscsi option in their product mix, but the majority of their solutions use GB and 10GB ethernet (NAS) solutions.

You could probably build something similar to the link you provided using fibre channel and ethernet, but I’m not really sure of the advantage of using both when 10GB ethernet solutions are now possible.

But just about anything that’s going to provide enough speed for mutliple channels of HD editing is going to be relatively expensive…likely at least $20k. You also have to think about archiving/backup when you build or buy a system. You’d hate to have 12TB or video, audio and project files rely solely on RAID 5 or RAID 10 if your business is built around all that data.

Others can probably give you much more specific answers, but building something like you suggest would probably be complicated with no guarantees of working unless you could find someone who’s already done it successfully.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com

[Matt Geier]

Hey John and Chris,

The answers are close in reach here. What’s interesting about both of your posts is that I’d like to point you to a place that makes this all possible with OSX environments.

Check these guys out…

https://forums.creativecow.net/smalltree

Matt G.

[Bob Zelin]

Hi John,
tell me the types of edit systems you currently own, and what you want to share, and I will tell you what to get. Facilis is a great company, but I realize that you do not want to spend $45,000. Tell me what you have – FCP, AVID, Smoke, Premier – and I will make accurate recommendations for you.

Bob Zelin

[John Jonathan]

Hey Bob,

We want to have one HERO box, either a SMOKE for MAC, or a ASSIMILATE SCRATCH, both would max out at 2k DPX uncompressed. The FCP/AE stations would be PRORES or something similar.

I would imagine around 4 FCP/AE stations and 1 SMOKE or SCRATCH. We potentially would have other systems via ethernet, but we want to be able to cap their bandwidth so they can move stuff off an on the storage, but that movement wouldn’t mess up the HERO box’s sustained data rate.

I appreciate any suggestions..

-J

[John Jonathan]

Hey Matt, I don’t dought that, but do you have any schematics or diagrams that show network layouts with SmallTree products. Doing what I wanted to do?

Thanks.

[Bob Zelin]

Hi John,
with normal accelerated ethernet (regular gigabit ethernet) we can do up to 90Mb/sec – this means Apple ProRes422, 422HQ, 4444, and DVCProHD. But no uncompressed HD, and no 2K. And certainly no DPX files. Uncompressed 2K is 292Mb/sec. You have to understand that you are limited by the speed of the drive array that you have – so if you have a single drive array that does 600Mb/sec, and you need one stream of 2K at 292Mb/sec, that limits the bandwidth for the rest of the systems.

You can do a combo of 10 Gig AND Gigabit ethernet. Let me explain (and we have not personally done this yet)- – Nick Hasson on this list has two MAC PRo’s, one running Smoke – and we put two 10 Gig cards in his two Macs, and he can do 2K and uncompressed HD between these two MACs. We do countless systems with regular ethernet for MAC’s (for prores422hq), but you want both.

With a single 16 bay drive array, we could put a 10 Gig card and a multiport ethernet card in the “server” MAC, and this could feed your 3 – 4 FCP edit systems, and your one “hero” system with 10 Gig, but you must understand that the minute that you run the 2K system, you are going to limit the bandwidth of your system to the rest of your FCP editors. Are there ways around this – of course there are, and they cost more money. We have found that if we use two SAS/SATA host adaptors, and TWO drive chassis, we get dramatically more speed in the drive performance, but of course, you are now adding money to the drive purchase.

You can contact Maxx Digital to talk about this more in detail, but weather you consider excellent solutions like Facilis Terrablock, or others, never forget that the stumbling block is the speed of your drive arrays. You have a finite bandwidth number to work with , and there is not a countless amount of data streams that you can run on all your systems. PRoREs422HQ is easy, 2K is not, – 2K DPX is 292Mb/sec, and this is half the data rate for a single stream of a modern hi speed drive array (single drive array).

Bob Zelin
(ask more questions if you have them !)

[John Jonathan]

Hey thanks Bob, the funniest thing is the most simple aspect, the math, was the hardest thing to wrap my head around. Have a drive that does X mb/s divide by streams, thats your bandwidth.

I will read though these emails carefully and figure out what kind of attack I can price out, and see how much money I save.

I think right now, my biggest confusion is 10GigE versus 8GB Fibre. It seems the cabling is very similar and 10GbE uses Fibre/Optical Cabling, but is backward compatible with all ethernet? So essentially you can go 10GigE piped down to 1GigE just by slowing the stream down, the packets move the same? So its better for some potential future proofing?

Also with any sort of SAN setup, FIBRE etc, you essentially you proprietary SAN software, or in the case of the Facilis Terrablock, its all built into the drive array. The array essentially has a bunch of drives, hardware (CPU,MEMORY), and software(SAN) to navigate traffic.

If I build something myself, I am just breaking up these components and since I am using basic network setup 10GbE over TCP/IP, the computers themselves are navigating the traffic and not a third party SAN software? Is having propietary SAN software station prefered? Could I just get a high end PC, put awesome SAN software on it, direct connect a Maxx Digital Evo 4K Expando, put a 10GbE Card or 8Gb fibre on it, and essentially save lots of money, and it would be similar to the Terrablock?

On the Mac side, a Mac with a Maxx Digital Array via direct connect(maybe a Evo 4K Expando), then a 10GbE, going to a few computers. Is it that we don’t need any SAN software? So I could do a MacPro computer, direct connect a MaxxDigital box, then put a 10GbE card on it, then connect it to a network? This setup would essentially work because it stays on the Mac network, its looks like mac, acts like a Mac but it is going to give me super fast drive stream speed.

Thanks So much, I think I am getting the hang of it. So 10GbE needs no extra software, but Fibre needs SAN software? Actually I am going to quit while I am ahead and do some more reading and wait for a reply.

Thanks ..

[Bob Zelin]

REPLY –
Hi John.
First, you are not going to do anything yourself. Unless you buy an established product (like Facilis), this is new ground, and even if I help you, I WILL NEED HELP from those that know a lot more than me. With the attitude of “I will just piece this together, I will figure it out” – you will fail.

Replies below –

I think right now, my biggest confusion is 10GigE versus 8GB Fibre. It seems the cabling is very similar and 10GbE uses Fibre/Optical Cabling, but is backward compatible with all ethernet?

REPLY – if you only need ONE 2K client running at 292Mb/sec, you will only need a regular ethernet shared storage system (under $15,000 complete), and the addition of two 10Gig cards (one for the server, one for your MAC Smoke system). You do not need an entire 10 Gig system, as your FCP systems, running ProRes don’t need 10Gig bandwidth. The minute you say “10 Gig only”, you will have limited clients, not only due to cost, but due to the limit of the drive speeds. Thinking about a 4 client 10 Gig system (or fibre) that can all do 2K requires a MINIMUM of 1200Mb/sec, which is the maximum speed you can get from custom configured drive arrays in 2010. If you want more than 4 clients at the same time, you are talking about multiple drive arrays, and a BIGGER 10 Gig SWITCH ! All expensive.
10Gig Fibre uses the same “LC” Optical cable, with SFP+ transceivers. Nick Hasson on this forum is not using this – he has a copper twin ax cable for 10Gig, but the MAXIMUM distance for 10Gig is only 30′ with copper, so most people ultimately will want to use fibre – even if it’s 10 Gig ethernet format.

So essentially you can go 10GigE piped down to 1GigE just by slowing the stream down, the packets move the same? So its better for some potential future proofing?

REPLY – this is a foolish way to think. This is developing technology. These cards are changing by the month. If you have a 10 Gig switch (which is expensive), you must get 10 Gig cards for your FCP client MAC’s – and these are expensive (compared to the free ethernet port on your MAC Pro). If you put a single 10Gig card in your server, and go into an (expensive) 10 Gig ethernet switch, these must to to 10Gig cards in your FCP client computers. No matter what speed you are operating at. It is DRAMATICALLY cheaper to go with regular ethernet, and just use a pair of 10Gig cards, for your one 2K client.

Also with any sort of SAN setup, FIBRE etc, you essentially you proprietary SAN software, or in the case of the Facilis Terrablock, its all built into the drive array. The array essentially has a bunch of drives, hardware (CPU,MEMORY), and software(SAN) to navigate traffic.

REPLY – with our SAN setup, there is NO SOFTWARE – you use Apple File Sharing. Link aggregation with ethernet – be it 1Gig ethernet or 10 Gig ethernet does not need custom software. Fibre channel does, and excellent software only solutions for Fibre Channel are
from Tiger Technology MetaSAN, and Command Soft Fibre Jet. These cost about $1000 per client.

If I build something myself, I am just breaking up these components and since I am using basic network setup 10GbE over TCP/IP, the computers themselves are navigating the traffic and not a third party SAN software?

REPLY – you are not building anything yourself. You will learn that without support, you will be screwed. Deal with any of the companies that you see on this forum, or advertise on Creative Cow – you don’t want to do this alone. EVEN I NEED HELP – and I don’t get my help from Creative Cow.

Is having propietary SAN software station prefered?

REPLY – no

Could I just get a high end PC, put awesome SAN software on it, direct connect a Maxx Digital Evo 4K Expando, put a 10GbE Card or 8Gb fibre on it, and essentially save lots of money, and it would be similar to the Terrablock?

REPLY – this is not a “build it yourself project”. If you are going to put pieces together for Fibre, look at Tiger MetaSAN and Command Soft Fibre Jet – but you still need all the stuff to configure a system, and this is not easy. If you want ethernet or 10Gig systems, there are lots of companies that can help you, that include
Maxx Digital, Small Tree, Apace Systems, and EditShare.

On the Mac side, a Mac with a Maxx Digital Array via direct connect(maybe a Evo 4K Expando), then a 10GbE, going to a few computers. Is it that we don’t need any SAN software?

REPLY – if you use Apple file Sharing, you do not need any SAN software. You think that you just plug in the 10Gig cards, and away you go – it’s not like that.

So I could do a MacPro computer, direct connect a MaxxDigital box, then put a 10GbE card on it, then connect it to a network?

REPLY – if you want to use Maxx Digital arrays, Maxx Digital can configure a MAC Pro for you, with multiple 10Gig ports. Or you can just put one 10Gig card (like we did for Nick Hasson), and connect to a second computer, and have 300Mb/sec over 10Gig ethernet.

This setup would essentially work because it stays on the Mac network, its looks like mac, acts like a Mac but it is going to give me super fast drive stream speed.

REPLY – yes, but there is more to it.

Thanks So much, I think I am getting the hang of it. So 10GbE needs no extra software, but Fibre needs SAN software?

REPLY – yes, this is correct. Some manufacturers like Editshare use custom excellent management software for ethernet and 10Gig based networks. Some, like Maxx Digital, just use File Sharing.

Actually I am going to quit while I am ahead and do some more reading and wait for a reply.

REPLY – stop reading. Start calling the companies that I have mentioned – ASK THEM QUESTIONS – do not rely on your own reading. Get the facts from the different companies that do this.

Excellent companies include –
Maxx Digital
Small Tree
Apace Systems
Edit Share
Facilis Terrablock
Studio Network Solutions
there are others, but this is a start.
Every one of these will be cheaper than Apple XSAN.

Bob Zelin

[Caspian Brand]

Hi John,

Studio Network Solutions has a storage system that covers Fibre Channel, 10 GbE and 1GbE connections and has both SAN and NAS functions all in one box and SAN software is bundled in the system for systems that require block level performance.

https://www.studionetworksolutions.com/video-san.php

-=Caspian