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I QUIT…. Working for nothing.
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[Tim Wilson] “People like Bob and me were no different than these punks today. We worked for zero, and worked our way up to peanuts, and worked that way for YEARS. In a way, its kind of cool that kids are using 5D cameras to fight for their scraps. I used a $10,000 camera to compete with $100,000 cameras, and my competitors came after me with DV cameras that cost $1000.”
I disagree that the 3/4, UVW and used 1″ based low budget post houses of the late 80’s were the same as what is happening today.
In terms of the dollar at the time, that gear cost a lot more. In todays dollars, that 10K camera would be about double. There were no new 600 dollar fluid head tripods. A used set of sticks and a crap fluid head would still set you back about 4K in todays dollars. So even the cheapest gear at the time was much more expensive in comparison to the wage it earned you. So in looking at the gear of the day, wages and rates, you would have much more skin in the game then todays noobs. Probably on the order of four to ten times as much.
I worked at a big market O & O station that did commercial production. When were over booked, we farmed out the low end commercials to a couple of guys that left to do this very thing. One big difference is there would be no way we would accept from them, the kind of crap the noobs turn out today. Example, even if you were shooting with a 10K camera, I’ll bet you still lit your set. I’m sure you took proper audio, used the sticks, shot cut-aways, etc. In other words, even at that level, you still had to conform to the standards of the time. Now, we have a class of workers that shun standards and try to make those that have some out to be the boogy-man. So even in the era of when the 3/4 mom and pop post houses started chipping away at the big guys, there was an expectation of what most refer to as “production values”.
The last thing I would say is there wasn’t a million of you, like there is now.Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com“If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair
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The original poster is absolutely right. I can tell you from my perspective of 33 years, the rates have plummeted and if it wasn’t for me having so many long time clients and being well known, I would be out of business. There is now an upper end and a gigantic lower end, little in the middle. Video Pros are going the way of America’s Middle Class: disappearing. Here are some examples:
Last week a prospect called me with such a ridiculously low price that I said I would help him out and put it on Chicago’s Craigslist. In 3 days I received 53 responses, 90% were highly qualified, usually with a DSLR. People are absolutely desperate, and I mean DESPERATE, to get in or stay in the biz. I could have gotten several to do it for free to build their reel.
Yesterday a media savvy doctor called me about my estimate to shoot him for a half day rate in a green screen studio and since he felt it would only take him one hour to do his delivery, he only wanted to pay for one hour. And this guy has done many videos!
I have seen many trends, a dangerous one was the Flip camera craze where clients were doing it themselves. But this DSLR movement (and iMovie/FCPX) has totally destroyed the price structure of the biz because of the flood of video “vendors”. Forget quality, storytelling, etc. it is now about price. I know this as a freelance videographer and independent producer who fields many calls a week. Video is no longer respected as a highly skilled profession except among experienced clients like agencies.
I was taught that anyone can learn the gear and software but only a small few can figure out how to make a sustainable living at it, where you can afford all your expenses. I am one of the lucky few. But now with this absolute flood of people coming in, every prospect we all know, and all the ones we don’t know, are well acquainted with someone who can produce them a very acceptable video dirt cheap.
I am writing this on the road from a hotel, shooting 3 days for one of the country’s largest beverage companies. They pay well, they demand quality, they are afraid of kids with DSLRs. However, upon my return I will be fielding the calls that the original poster complained about, and in the last two years I have seen them steadily increase. People wanting us pros to work for about half the normal rate. If that is the majority of calls and you turn them down, you go out of business. Drop your rate to meet heir demand and you will also go out of business. I receive email notices from a board that posts crew positions for reality shows out of LA & NY mainly. I see the amount they are offering is less and less. It is all across the industry.
The posters in this thread who don’t seem to be too worried about these changes probably are sitting fat and happy with some deep pocket, steady clients who they feel will stay forever. But as a survivor I am a keen observer of trends and this declining rate trend due to too many people offering pro video services is more like a total restructuring of our industry and we will not make the rates of the tradesmen listed in a post above. One’s only hope is to find and keep satisfied a wide variety of deep pocket clients who demand high quality, plus mine niches. And network, network, network!
Bob Zelin wrote: “There are a lot of TV channels, who need a lot of media. There is more corporate video than ever before. There is more educational video, more training video, more web shows than ever before. Every company has an AV department, every magazine has a web magazine. Every company has a YouTube video for their products.”
Yes the above is true, I made my living off them for years, and they have all gone cheap, cheap, cheap. Many have gone DIY or got a kid on staff. 90% of the producers and production companies I shoot for now have their own DSLR or prosumer camera they want me to shoot with for just my labor rate, so how can a DP make a living? I now cringe when the caller wants a web video. Have you noticed everyone now wants a $600 video because the people he called before you all quoted around $600 and he’s hoping you are $500? That happens a few times a week…A few years ago it was normal to get $1500 for a two minute video…
If any of you doubt my words above, post on your local big city’s Craigslist an ad for exactly what you do and post a ridiculously low rate like I had to do. When you see the responses you will be shocked and depressed but realize I have a realistic viewpoint: The biz has gone to the dogs in terms of rates. Simple Econ 101: supply and demand. We now have way too much supply.
And please don’t respond to my post if you are on staff receiving a steady paycheck because this forum is about the Business & Marketing of pro video, something a staff person doesn’t need to concern themselves with.
Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
http://www.bizvideo.com -
Hi Ned
Your points are shared by me and I think it is only going to get worse..if it has not already.
Funny…Just quoted on a job today. Client wanted around 4 hours filming and editing on site. Something simple and straight forward, nothing fancy.
Thought I would test the water. Quoted a very low price of £165.00 to see if they would bite.
They did bite but then wanted me to knock off £90.00 as they have had quotes for £75.00.
I politely told them to P**s off.
This proves something.
They think £75.00 is still expensive to be looking for a better quote.I know the client is not interested in what gear you use or the cost of the gear but for me to take my cheapest sd kit would be in the region of £5000.
It is so disheartning and frustrating.
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[Craig Seeman] ”
Don’t cut your price, cut your costs and your services.”LOL, pretty easy to just toss that out without backing it up with anything.
What corners are you going to cut when the time comes? Ride your ten-speed to gigs? Stop paying your taxes? Shoot with a used Flip-cam you bought on fleabay? I’m curious?
And how exactly does this jive with all this advice saying quality is what sells?
And at what point when you’ve done all that, show up to gigs like the noobs do with with nothing but a consumer camera but yet still have to compete with a million noobs that have no overhead and no investment, are you going to reduce your rates to compete? Never? Maybe a little? Maybe a lot?
Pretty much same thing goes to those they say if you can’t compete, get another line of work. When your time comes, I wonder if you will take your own advice?Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com“If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair
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Exactly Scott.
Their time will come…. Their clients will eventually dissapear in the mist.
As you say:
“When your time comes, I wonder if you will take your own advice?”
I wonder also!
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[Scott Sheriff] “What corners are you going to cut when the time comes?”
Less expensive cameras for one as I note. Less expensive DSLRs as an example. Canon T4i at $900 really keeps low budget clients who want the shallow depth of field happy.
[Scott Sheriff] ” Ride your ten-speed to gigs?”
Take the subway when it’s just me and the camera (no lights). Some clients really don’t care. As I said, fast food.
[Scott Sheriff] “When your time comes, I wonder if you will take your own advice?”
I have and its worked. It depends on the client.
[Scott Sheriff] “are you going to reduce your rates to compete?”
Then you miss my point. The point is to get your rate. Cut overhead.
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Hi Craig.
Just a matter of interest. With the info you supplied and you say its working for you what rate are you actually charging?
Curious to know as here in the UK £75.00 for a days work seems to be what some clients will only pay.
Cheers Andy
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Hi Craig.
One other question.
Noticed you have been a member of the cow since 1970.
I was born in 1970 and I`m 42 years of age.
Don`t mean to sound rude but are you retired and doing this part time for extra cash or are you seriously doing it full time.
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[Andy jackson] “Curious to know as here in the UK £75.00 for a days work seems to be what some clients will only pay.”
There’s no way to survive with that unless you have no housing or food costs.
For me a base is $800-$1200 a day.
The way around it is not so much the rate (as I say, objective is not to lower the rate) but what the client gets for the rate.I can also play with short shoot day rates as well. That only works if you have a lot of unsupervised work though. I have my own shoot area with lights all ready to go. If all I need is a crew of ME than I can charge them straight hourly. This means if someone wants to come in for 2 hours at $300, I can do it. No travel, virtually no setup/breakdown time. I get right back to doing unsupervised work.
Maybe another way of looking at this, is examining your business as an efficiency expert would. Also keep in mind that in jobs like these the goal is “adequacy” for the client. These is not work for the reel.
It’s OK to want to do great work and charge for it . . . but lots of clients don’t want to pay for that. That’s at issue here (I think).
Find ways to work faster (not for less per hour/day). Find ways to give more while keeping your costs down.I think some of what people are pointing to are low quality expectations from the client. If you can’t upsale them, then the answer may be to meet those expectations (cringe, I know) and a cost that sustains/profits you. The challenge is, we’ve never had to think that way (or at least to that extreme that often) before.
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[Craig Seeman] “[Scott Sheriff] “What corners are you going to cut when the time comes?”
Less expensive cameras for one as I note. Less expensive DSLRs as an example. Canon T4i at $900 really keeps low budget clients who want the shallow depth of field happy.
[Scott Sheriff] ” Ride your ten-speed to gigs?”
Take the subway when it’s just me and the camera (no lights). Some clients really don’t care. As I said, fast food.”
I don’t know if you’re being deliberately evasive, or didn’t understand the question.
The T4i, no lights and the subway is where you’re at now. I’m not talking about now. I’m talking about tomorrow, when that client buys his own cheap cam, and wants you to come in and run it for ten bucks an hour. Or maybe his nephew, or the new kid in the mail room will do it for free. Now what? You have already demonstrated that you are willing to lower your standards to the level of the noobs in order to compete. How far are you willing to go? At what point can you no longer cut anything, and be forced to lower your rate? Will you go buy a C300, or maybe even a RED to keep your rate to beat that kid down the street with a 5D mkIII that will do a day for 50 bucks because he lives with his parents and has no overhead? You have already conditioned your client to accept lower quality, and appears you have boxed yourself in.
My point? It seems you’re in the same boat the rest of us are in, just living in denial. Or are you not doing this full time to support yourself?Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com“If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair
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