I keep reading this camera will record onto miniDV?

[Vincent Rice]

Sigh… You are concentrating on the P2 cost issue which simply is of no long term consequence. Panasonic will have no problem at all selling the first runs of these units I guarantee it. In a year’s time when supply will more plentiful the cost of the P2 cards will be irrelevant. You have also completely avoided the crux of my argument: any P2 cards that you will surely have for recording HD will be four times more cost effective when recording DV25! What’s the point of a MiniDV deck?

[Graeme Nattress]

I think the answer is that as you upgrade to HD, you hang onto your old DV camera. If you’re doing that kind of event, it might be better to hook the camera to a DV deck if you can (we don’t know yet…) and record to “big” DV tapes so you don’t have to change in the middle. I know plenty of people who use that workflow now for event work – they don’t even record onto the tape in the camera.

Graeme

– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP

[Brian Deviteri]

Yeah, I’ve used that “video out” to a deck workflow before mainly for very long meetings on a 1-camera shoot when I need some redundancy for a tape change. But why should I not be able to preserve my workflow and do exactly what I do right now with new equipment? I think others are expressing these same concerns that I have. Yeah, I can hold onto my old miniDV camera that has definately seen better days, but if I can sell that as a used camera for a few bucks, I can put that money towards a new HD/HDV capable camera. If this HVX200 is capable of shooting on miniDV tapes, then my camera package can be a lot more compact and the camera truly can function as a “swiss army knife” of sorts. Isn’t that what most of us are looking for when it comes to a camera anyways?

Here’s the main problem when it comes to purchasing… I can go out and get a Sony HDV camera (Z1U) that will record DV, DVCAM, and HDV. And with FireStore’s FS4 supporting HDV in a few months, I don’t even need to worry about shooting on tape there either (unless its for backup). I’m not a $10,000 – $15,000 camera production on a daily basis. When I need something more expensive, I usually rent the equipment or hire a local crew to shoot it for me. I’m looking in the sub-$10,000 range for working with HD or HDV content and I need to slowly migrate towards that HD/HDV workflow, which will take time with many of my clients. If the price is right with the HVX200, then I think this might be the best camera on the market at the time when I am looking to purchase. But only if it will protect my current workflow and not end up costing me a whole lot more to do what I already do now at a reasonable cost.

[Graeme Nattress]

I think it’s all one of the trade-offs for getting DVCProHD down to a reasonably affordable price. I know, for one, that if the camera has a DV deck, that I’ll not be using it, and it will just be taking up weight and space on the camera. For other’s a DV deck on the camera will be a life-saver for them.

But tape’s days are numbered. Consumer cameras are now shooting MP4 to RAM, or MPEG2 to DVD. High end cameras are going P2, XDCAM disc, or direct to hard disk. Sure, there’s still some tape cameras, and there’s some life in tape still left, but still, I’d not be buying shares in tape manufacturers….

It will certainly be interesting to see exactly what the camera brings next week, and what workflows develop from it.

Graeme

– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP

[Brian Deviteri]

I too agree that the tape days are numbered… and yes, direct to disc acquisition in some form is starting to become more mainstream. But still, many of us need to migrate to the tapeless acquisition formats.

Having miniDV on board for those times when you need to shoot in DV mode and hand a tape to a client at the end of the day, that’s really important for many people. Having to convert everything to files and then dump to tape at the end of a shoot can be a huge waste of time, more expense, more equipment, and a loss of business for many people. Tapeless acquisition is great for a direct to edit situation, but many clients still want something in their hand at the end of the day, even if you will be editing the shoot. Many clients have grown to accept miniDV, which was difficult at first for a lot of them. Accepting a huge file right off the bat in addition to “changing the format” will just be more than many of them can handle at one time.

I for one, surely hope that we can get miniDV support on this camera. If not, then I really think a lot of us will be left looking at other HD/HDV camera options or else holding off on the migration until it becomes more cost effective.

I can honestly say, I have never been more anxious for an NAB product announcement before.

[Luis Caffesse]

[Brian SaenzDeViteri] “I can honestly say, I have never been more anxious for an NAB product announcement before.”

Regardless of all the speculation and debate that’s going on…that’s one statement I’m pretty sure we can all agree with.

Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas

[Deleted User]

[Vincent Rice] “… You have also completely avoided the crux of my argument: any P2 cards that you will surely have for recording HD will be four times more cost effective when recording DV25! What’s the point of a MiniDV deck?”

Sorry, but I didn’t understand this was the main point of your argument until you pointed it out in this post, regrets. Thanks for spelling it out; now I can respond:

The point is, of course, that DV25 miniDV is w-a-y more cost effective for many types of video productions and for many potential customers of the new P2 camera — practically no matter _how_ inexpensive P2 cards get, at least for a (relatively) l-o-n-g time.

Umm, of course you can shoot at least 4 times as much DV25 on a P2 card compared to how much DVCPRO-100 you can fit onto it. Was there any doubt about that?

Meanwhile, and for many, many months to come if not longer, you’ll be able to record tons more DV25 onto cheap, cheap miniDV tapes.

Now I turn things around and ask you: Why would anyone record DV25 on P2 cards __in most cases__ when it’s so much cheaper to use miniDV tapes instead?

Sure, I can think of exceptions when P2 is certainly cost effective for DV25 work, but P2 isn’t a universal answer/solution to every video production question/problem. Panasonic’s marketing efforts notwithstanding. 😉

So I believe I see your point, and I respectfully disagree.

We’ll see what Panasonic’s “answer” to this question is in just a few days.

All the best,

– Peter

Just a friendly reminder to all: Please consider filling-in your COW user profile information so we have a better idea who you are, where you’re from, and so forth. It’s the friendly thing to do. Thanks!

[Graeme Nattress]

I think it’s “nice” that these new cameras record DV as well as their brand of HD, be it DVCProHD or HDV, but really, this is a feature that you’re not buying the camera for. I doubt anyone is buying an HD camera, just to shoot DV on it – that would be daft. If you want a better DV picture, you’d be going for a big chip camera, not an HD camera with the same sized chip.

This camera is all about getting DVCproHD into the hands of the masses. It’s about making P2 a commodity that’s popular among the masses. It’s about giving indie filmmakers the tools they need, affordably.

However, what this camera offers, which Panasonic haven’t done before (and why not??) on their DVX, is proper widescreen. And indeed, proper widescreen (which Sony have not done often in their consumer cams) is what people are buying the FX1 and Z1 for too.

But really, I don’t see much point in spending the cash on an HD camera (wether it shoots SD or not) unless you’re going to be shooting HD. If you’re wanting a better picture from SD, get a beter SD camera, with bigger chips etc. That said, I certainly like the idea of shooting DVCpro50 which is a very nice codec with a father fine picture quality above that of DV and DVCproHD, albeit at SD resolution. It might be fun to shoot DV once in a while to see “how it compares”.

Graeme

– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects for FCP

[Vincent Rice]

Ok, I give up.

[Deleted User]

[Graeme Nattress] “I think it’s “nice” that these new cameras record DV as well as their brand of HD, be it DVCProHD or HDV, but really, this is a feature that you’re not buying the camera for. I doubt anyone is buying an HD camera, just to shoot DV on it – that would be daft. …”

Hi Graeme: I’m not sure who you’re responding to here, or if you’re just making a general comment. In any event, I certainly haven’t proposed that most folks should/would buy the new AG-HVX200 P2 cam solely or primarily for its DV25 (or possible miniDV) capability.

However, _many_ potential AG-HVX200 owners _greatly_ value DV25 & miniDV capability. For example, almost every corporate and event shooter I’ve discussed the cam with has expressed the strong need for DV25, miniDV and — to a lesser extent — HD capability. Why? Because they have clients who want to pay them to shoot DV25 on miniDV today. The shooters can see how they will gradually begin to use HD in their work, but they know for a fact they can sell DV25 miniDV today.

A very large number of videographers make money — real money — shooting DV25 on miniDV tapes. If Panasonic includes DV25 miniDV capability in the AG-HVX200, they’ll sell many, many times more of these cams to these videographers than they’ll ever to sell to the digital cinema crowd.

A high percentage of corporate and event shooters would like to upgrade their present cameras. However, their limited financial resources tends to argue against buying a relatively expensive “high end” DV-only camcorder at this time, given the HD tidal wave we all know is coming.

For a variety of very good reasons many shooters greatly prefer a new cam be able to shoot “all” modes. The manufacturers generally recognize this: For the past few years they’ve been making prosumer/pro cams which shoot several modes, especially in the case of the new HDV cams.

So why is it such a stretch to understand why the AG-HVX200 shouldn’t include DV25 & miniDV capability? What law of marketing or common sense does it violate? _Especially_ when we’re talking about technology which is essentially _free_ to manufacture, and is also so highly profitable for a large percentage of its potential customers.

I think what the AG-HVX200 should really be all about is not “killing tape”, but instead providing a solution for customers who “want it all” and the most bang for their buck. The lion’s share of the AG-HVX200’s market is the high-end prosumer videography customer, and these people currently live & breathe DV25 miniDV tape. And because these customers also want to broaden their own markets by being able to offer _additional_ services (DVCPRO-50 & DVCPRO-HD) to their clients, the AG-HVX200 will “make sense” only _if_ it includes DV25 miniDV tape in addition to P2.

[Graeme Nattress] “… This camera is all about getting DVCproHD into the hands of the masses. It’s about making P2 a commodity that’s popular among the masses. It’s about giving indie filmmakers the tools they need, affordably. … But really, I don’t see much point in spending the cash on an HD camera (wether it shoots SD or not) unless you’re going to be shooting HD. If you’re wanting a better picture from SD, get a beter SD camera, with bigger chips etc. …”

A P2-only (tapeless) camera positioned to sell for “under $10K USD” is not a “mass” market product, relatively speaking. Sure, Panasonic will sell many of them to the digital cinema/indie crowd — which is All Good(TM) & god bless ’em — but that won’t keep Panasonic’s factories humming.

If Panasonic wants to sell gazillions of these babies, they’ll include DV25 miniDV tape recording capability. If they don’t, they might not sell gazillions; maybe they’ll only sell millions of them >grin<. And that's All Good(TM), too. A few of us may even buy a AG-HVX200 which doesn't include a built-in DV25 miniDV tape transport, and instead connect the cam via Firewire to an external portable harddrive DV25 recorder unit, or to a portable Sony miniDV recorder. In about 5 days or so we'll see what Panasonic has in mind. I propose that if the AG-HVX200 is tapeless, then Panasonic should award one to Graeme. Or, if it includes a DV25 miniDV tape transport, then they should instead give one to Barry Green. Oh, wait, Barry's already got his ... 😉 And may the best man win! - Peter Just a friendly reminder to all: Please consider filling-in your COW user profile information so we have a better idea who you are, where you're from, and so forth. It's the friendly thing to do. Thanks!