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I guess it’s So Long and Thanks for all the Fish!
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. Desktop video started on Macs
If I am not mistaken the first video pc was “The Amiga”
Richard
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[Craig Seeman] “Think of a MacMini with one or two 16 lane PCIe slots for GPUs, SSD boot and one hard drive. three thunderbolt ports with a possible fourth being fiber thunderbolt. A basic i7 4 core system might be competitive with the higher end iMac prices. Top price might be a little lower than top MacPro.”
[Craig Seeman] “Currently there is nothing [on the PC platform] matching the description. That may change but there are no Thunderbolt desktops on Windows. Only a Sony Vaio laptop at the moment. Apple will have a multiport Thunderbolt desktop. It’s success will depend on the viability of the Thunderbolt market.”
ThunderBolt might be a red herring here.
Let’s assume for a moment that Apple builds your new mostly-ThunderBolt, highly-expandable, mini Mac Pro. Let’s further assume that ThunderBolt does not become widely-adopted on the PC platform. Would that put the entire PC platform at a disadvantage?
I don’t think so. PCs could simply continue to offer internal PCIe slots. Internal expansion would still be cheaper (or higher margin), since you wouldn’t need internal TB controllers, separate external enclosures, or expensive active cables for every single device you want to add.
I agree that it is certainly simpler to plug in a single cable than it is to add a PCIe card. External expansion might make computer cases a little smaller, too (though multiple processors, GPUs, memory slots, and all the attendent power and cooling constraints are significant factors in case design).
That said, I don’t see how ThunderBolt will lower the TCO for video production, or the costs for manufacturers. I think it will actually add costs (buying you simplicity), and will only increase expansion options for a single computer if you need to connect more than half a dozen high-speed peripherals.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Darren Kelly] “Give me a break. Honestly. This machine is in the same class as any MacPro out there right now, with the exception of the 12 core, $6K machine.”
Wow. Touchy! In my household at this point in time, we collectively own 2 Macs, 2 HPs, 1 Sony and 1 Lenevo. We’ve had an old W series HP workstation (preceded the Z series) that’s been a real workhorse. I’m not saying that the choice you are making is a bad one, but that machine is NOT the same level of design or engineering or build construction as a Mac Pro or a Z series machine. When I priced a Mac Pro against a similarly configured Z, the Mac Pro has typically been cheaper.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
It’ll hit several market niches which is something a MacPro can’t do at the moment.
Smaller form factor for those who don’t like towers.
High speed connectivity to a central networked brain (server san) without the local bulk.
More power and flexibility than the iMac.[Walter Soyka] “will only increase expansion options for a single computer if you need to connect more than half a dozen high-speed peripherals.”
and it may be the best solution for that market niche. It might be rack mountable in that form factor as well.Price? The base MacBookAir at $999 has a Thunderbolt port. I don’t think the port itself drives up the price that much. I haven’t seen any price increase in Apple’s product line as a result of the port. I think Apple believes it will increase sales. Previous computers with limited expandability now can use peripherals they were locked out of. On the other hand the new computer will have more expansion than a current MacPro and I believe will cost less for the equivalent (or better) power.
Such a box makes far more sense for Apple than a tower with PCIe slots. It’ll reach users how need the power and may or may not need the expansion as well as those who want a base unit with a smaller form factor.
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“but that machine is NOT the same level of design or engineering or build construction as a Mac Pro or a Z series machine”
I’m not a design guy when it comes to my computer. First, I rarely see it, second if it makes the same color of money, it’s fine by me.
All I want to do is make the maximum amount of money for the minimum amount of $$ output. I know this machine will do it. If I’m wrong….. I’ll order a Z class, just to make you happy OK?
I’ve built my own PC’s between 1994 and 2000. I’ve maintained PC’s since 1994. This machine with the upgrades I have ordered will handle the job as well as anything. You’re comment about firewire, and the constant talk about Thunderbolt – is anyone around here remember how powerful FW1600 and FW3200 was going to be? What, they never made them!!! How about Fibre Channel. Apple swore by it, developed $12K raids – of which I owned one – now they no longer support it.
The industry has adopted USB3 and ESATA. It is still on the fence regarding Thunderbolt. Way easier to install a couple of drives and create a RAID, than using external drives. I’m coming from a standpoint of using SCSI, and buying my first 2 X 2GB drives for over $4K.
Anyway, I’m done on this thread. Keep arguing if you guys like. See you all in the Premiere forum sometime.
DBK
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A lot of what you’re paying for with the Z series is security – not just their excellent product support and build quality but the fact that their products are the ones card and software manufacturers often test their gear on.
However this “safety net” is costing you upwards of 2K per machine.
You can find reputable VAR’s on the web that will build, install, test and support fully configured NLE systems that cost way, way less than a MacPro or a Z series.
The only question you have to ask yourself is how much is it worth to you to know that you spent the most to buy the best on those days when nothing is working and you have deadlines to meet.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions -
[Craig Seeman] “I don’t think the port itself drives up the price that much.”
It might not for Apple, but I believe it will for the consumer.
One thunderbolt cable costs about $50, and new Macs don’t come with a cable. If you have to buy separate modules you need to add another $50 to the cost of each one to connect it. If you could buy a Thunderbolt GPU it would be the cost of the GPU module + cable or the cost of the cable would be included with the module, making that GPU module more expensive than purchasing just the GPU alone.
Or buy a system with a couple PCIE slots, buy your GPU and plug it into an existing PCIE slot – no additional connection cost there. The cost of the modular Mac would have to be low enough to offset the increased cost of module design, cooling, and cabling.
If you end up needing 6 thunderbolt cables, you’re adding $300 to the cost in cabling alone. I’d expect each module to be a little more expensive, too – just as a bare internal hard drive is much cheaper than an external one. The cost of the case, design, etc…drives the cost up.
Is this where Apple will make money, though? I imagine the profit margins for cases and cabling would be pretty high. From a consumer standpoint, however, it’s suddenly gotten a whole lot more expensive.
Something to consider. Modular could easily be a lot more expensive -just like FCPX costs about $800 if you need OMF export.
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Michael Hancock
Editor -
Miniaturization is the defining trend in consumer technology, but it comes at the cost of power. If Apple can take the power of today’s Mac Pro and cram it in a machine half the size, couldn’t they instead double the power of today’s Mac Pro in the current form factor?
Personally, I’d rather see the next Mac Pro be a quad-socket monster, not today’s machine in a smaller package.
If we’re going to talk about workstations, we need to keep the conversation broader than video editorial. The machine that you’re describing would be great for many segments of the market, but would be a step back for other segments that prioritize performance.
It almost sounds like the return of the Cube, which didn’t go so well the first time around. It sat confusingly between the consumer and professional lines — overpowered and thus too costly for a consumer machine, but not powerful enough for a pro machine.
[Craig Seeman] “Price? The base MacBookAir at $999 has a Thunderbolt port. I don’t think the port itself drives up the price that much.”
Think about the costs on the device end, though. Every device will be adding a TB controller, an enclosure, an expensive active TB cable, and possibly a power adapter, too, on top of the PCIe hardware they are already building. None of these are extreme costs, but they will demand an increase in price, just as external hard drives do over internal hard drives.
[Craig Seeman] “On the other hand the new computer will have more expansion than a current MacPro and I believe will cost less for the equivalent (or better) power.”
The current Mac Pro with 4 slots / 40 lanes of PCIe is not the gold standard of expansion. This is an area that deserves improvement. Looking forward to increased GPGPU, more high-speed slots will be an asset.
[Craig Seeman] “Previous computers with limited expandability now can use peripherals they were locked out of.”
This I agree with — TB improves the capabilities of portable machines drastically.
[Craig Seeman] “Such a box makes far more sense for Apple than a tower with PCIe slots.”
It may make more sense for Apple, but that’s not my concern. What makes more sense for power users?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Richard Cardonna] “If I am not mistaken the first video pc was “The Amiga””
Maybe a little. 🙂
You’re right that the Toaster was revolutionary, but less for editing imo than switching, keying and CG than editing.
It was introduced in 1990. Avid Media Composer was built around the Mac II, shown in 1988, shipped in 1989.
(The EditDroid in 1984 was earlier, but there were only 24 built, and not running on an off-the-shelf personal computer – more a precursor than the actual revolution.)
Since I see Toaster as a sidestep more into production than post, I’m going to stick with a family line that goes through Macromind Mediamaker (1991, before the company changed its name to Macromedia 92) and Adobe Premiere, through to Media 100 (arguably the first true desktop video system to deliver finished-quality broadcast video) and Final Cut Pro — all originally Mac-only, and proudly so.
In the meantime, no Windows developer reasonably expected to win over a Mac customer. I can’t imagine that the dual platform developers at Adobe and Avid expected a single platform migration. Adding Windows into a mostly-Mac mix, sure. Dropping Mac, never. There was nothing that any of them could do to make a Mac fan leave the platform.
So which is the company that has, for the first time in NLE history, made a meaningful percentage of the highest-end, most passionate Apple loyalists seriously consider leaving Macs to adopt Windows?
Apple, that’s who.
Nobody, least of all me, is suggesting that migrators will ever be the majority. But it’s now squarely one of the mainstream options to consider as Mac people contemplate their future relationship to Apple….or more precisely, Apple’s future relationship to them.
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Wikipedia:
Non-linear editing with computers as we know it today was first introduced by Editing Machines Corp. in 1989 with the EMC2 editor; a hard disk based non-linear off-line editing system, using half-screen resolution video at 15 frames per second. A couple of weeks later that same year, Avid introduced the Avid/1.
The EMC2 (2 for squared) was a PC and the first NLE. I used it for many years, it was the first of many EOL’s I have lived thru, but alas, not the last.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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