HVX200 luminance values

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Tom Wolsky] “I don’t know what that means.”

Meaning if you have zebras set for 70, the camera will tell you what part of the image is at or above 70, but it won’t tell you if that value over 70 is 80 or 90 or 105, and no I am not seeing the discrepancy you see.

IRE is an absolute measure, but if the scope isn’t calibrated properly there’s nothing you can do. Continuing your analogy a meter is a meter but if it’s missing a few centimeters it will be hard to measure a meter. Whether that’s Tokyo or Japan, you are going to come up short. That’s what I mean about FCP scopes, it’s hard to get an accurate reading from them because they are hard to see. There could be a small little dot hovering in the 70 ire range, and you might not be able to see it, literally.

The reason I ask about a capture card is that you said the image looked dark coming out of FCP, I was wondering how you might be monitoring this dark image. it has to be through a capture card (or a video monitoring card, whatever the hell you want to call it) or else you are watching the canvas which is not an accurate monitor. We are using P2 as a second camera on almost every shoot now and I am quite familiar with the workflow. I still need a Kona card to properly monitor my footage. I couldn’t work accurately without it.

All I’m trying to do is make sure you are measuring the footage properly throughout your post production chain. If you are, then perhaps your camera is faulty. So far, i cannot say that you have done so, is all.

Jeremy

[Tom Wolsky]

Your first paragraph is the way zebra should work and does not correspond to what you said in earlier messages, but never mind that.

I’m monitoring on the scopes inside FCP. That’s what I’m talking about. NOTHING external to FCP. You said earlier the scopes in FCP are unreliable. Once again what is the basis for this statement? How can there be scopes in a video application that do not correctly correspond to the values of the digital image? The scopes tell me the image is dark, and this corresponds to the the display in FCP, but it is the scopes in the application that I’m enquiring about and the its discrepancy to the behavior of the camera.

All the best,

Tom

Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” and “Final Cut Express Made Easy” DVDs

[Gary Adcock]

[Tom Wolsky] “We were running some tests yesterday with the HVX200 and noticed some significant and disturbing luminance discrepancies between what we were seeing on the camera end and what we were seeing inside FCP”

Tom

everyone and there brother is having color and consistency issues with QT 7.1.3, ( ie: edit to tape in 10bit in every HD format) but more to the point are you comfortable with how FCP Handles it’s scopes? The engine running the scopes is the same that controls the zebras. Have you seen any issue with the Gamma setting on import affecting more than stills?

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Gary Adcock]

[Tom Wolsky] “I’m monitoring on the scopes inside FCP. That’s what I’m talking about. NOTHING external to FCP.”

I guess to jeremy’s point you should be using something outside of FCP to check accuracy, you know that the FCP scopes do not scan all lines in in any HD, so have you tried to open up the same files in Final Touch or Color finesse and take a look via one of the proven software scopes?

I have a calibrated Leader 5750 scope and I can assure you what the hardware tells me does not match what FCP is telling me is within acceptable limits. I not going to trust $1000 piece software over a $10,000 piece of hardware, that is not to say I dislike FCP, but when I am running tests – the hardware is my only reference.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

The Newly revised HVX200 Training DVD is now available at https://www.rastervector.com/dvd/dvd.html.

[Tom Wolsky]

Thanks Gary. Though it’s very disappointing to hear of problems like this with QuickTime, which is the basis of so much of what we do.

I’m not happy with the new scopes in 5.1.2. The waveform monitor is just a smudge, and I have to keep switching back and forth between 16-line mode to make it readable. In some ways the new WFM is a step back. Why does it have to be so hard to read? It’s really bad on a laptop. Can’t a little more luma be cranked into the scopes themselves? God forbid you don’t can’t do this in a darkened room, there’s no way any thing could be seen.

I was comparing the FCP scopes with zebra in the camera, not zebra within FCP, which I presume is triggered in the same way. Though I have to say in earlier versions I’ve noticed discrepancies between the zebra display and the WFM and histogram.

I haven’t used the gamma controls, but it doesn’t surprise me that it would start it effect other material. What other material is it affecting? The application seems to be able to distinguish formats. For instance the gamma control in item properties is non-functional on video clips. Could it be affecting clips imported through P2 import? I’ll have to test it and see if I get changes when I change the user prefs and import P2 material.

All the best,

Tom

Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” and “Final Cut Express Made Easy” DVDs

[Tom Wolsky]

We’re ingesting, cutting on a laptop and delivering within a couple of hours. I have to test it in field conditions unfortunately, not in a lab. I have to test what the operator is going to work with and what he/she will have to use to produce acceptable results in the field.

That’s bad. That’s really, really bad to hear. How far out are the scopes in FCP? In what direction, or is it variable, which it most likely is, and the worst possible case.

It’s really bad when the editor works with the material, which does not look like the material the cameraperson believes they are producing, that the material to the editor looks like it’s one or two stops too dark.

The FCP scopes are also showing that everything coming from the camera seems to have a little set-up to it, maybe 2 or 3% above black, nothing like 7.5, but set up just a little.

All the best,

Tom

Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” and “Final Cut Express Made Easy” DVDs

[Gary Adcock]

[Tom Wolsky] “We’re ingesting, cutting on a laptop and delivering within a couple of hours. I have to test it in field conditions unfortunately, not in a lab. I have to test what the operator is going to work with and what he/she will have to use to produce acceptable results in the field.”

what is being used to monitor on set? The set monitor should be the master, and your laptops setting should be set to mirror the setup of the Set monitor – think of it as calibrating your display so that the print out matches. that means resetting the Mac Gamma to PC Gamma etc…

[Tom Wolsky] “It’s really bad when the editor works with the material, which does not look like the material the cameraperson believes they are producing, that the material to the editor looks like it’s one or two stops too dark.”

How is the computer setup? I use custom display settings when editing on a laptop, and an old laptop may not be up to par if the backlight is not set correctly or faded with age.

[Tom Wolsky] “The FCP scopes are also showing that everything coming from the camera seems to have a little set-up to it, maybe 2 or 3% above black, nothing like 7.5, but set up just a little.”

is the camera set up correctly? All digital content should be 0 only analog outs should have setup (and FCP is not showing proper black levels with any HD content in 5.1.2 )

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Tom Wolsky]

It’s a small Marshall HD monitor. I’m not so much concerned about the way it looks on the laptop computer. I can drive that to display anything I want. I’m concerned about the scopes in FCP, because that’s what we’re using to drive the luma values of the image.

These are new 17″ MacBook Pros.

“FCP is not showing proper black levels with any HD content in 5.1.2”

Well, that’s not good. Is it showing black as setup, what I’m seeing on the scopes? Would that mean the overall levels the scopes are showing are even higher than they are, i.e. the whole luma range is shifted upward?

This horrible cycle of fix one thing and break two is really taking its toll on this application. Not being able to direct capture to the laptop with timecode is a real crusher that was introduced a couple of revs ago.

All the best,

Tom

Author: “Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials” and “Final Cut Express 2 Editing Workshop” Class on Demand “Complete Training for FCP5” and “Final Cut Express Made Easy” DVDs