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How to tell if something was shot 24p SD from HVX capturing with DSR-20
Hello all, been a while since I had to capture tapes or dealt with tape based media so I could really use some help / a refresher with this issue:
My assistant editor is capturing tapes (miniDV) for a multicam show shot on the HVX (same cameras for each of the 4 cameras) in 16:9 SD 24p (or so the DP says it was shot 24p – NON “A” mode, just the standard 2:3 pulldown – I wasn’t on set so I have no idea) that’s going to be broadcast on a cable network – we’re capturing with a Sony DSR-20 deck. When we just play the tape in the deck, it says that there’s 29 frames / second in the frame counter and when we capture in FCP even with a 24p easy setup, it captures it into FCP at 29.97, there aren’t any motion artifacts, everything looks great – it’s 16:9 albeit it’s capturing at 29.97. When we pull a clip into the timeline, it says the standard message about the timeline settings not matching the clip settings and it changes the timeline to 29.97 to match.
The big question is, how can I tell if the show was actually shot at 24p? I don’t know the crew so I don’t have complete faith in their knowledge of the cameras and now the producers are demanding to know if the show was shot in 29.97 or 24p as 24p was requested. Don’t want hell to rein down on anyone if it’s not necessary.
Thanks in advance,
Bryan
FCP / AVID EDITOR
Features : Television
http://www.DefiningFilms.com -
4 Replies
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Bryan,
The quick answer is: MAYBE!
Standard Definition NTSC video will be recorded at 29.97 frame rate, regardless of your camera settings.
See Page 37 of the manual: 24P mode:“Shoot 24 frames a second in the progressive mode. For output and recording, the 24-frame-per- second signal is converted to 60-field-per-second interlace using the widely used “2:3” ratio.”
I repeat. You will NOT see 24 frames on DV video. It will be 29.97 with the added pulldown making up the extra frames.
To check if the camera was set to 24P, scroll through the fields and count the frame changes. You should easily be able to see the pull down pattern. Unfortunately, I don’t think the DSR-20 is capable of scrolling like this. You may need a higher quality deck in order to do this. Even easier, the digitized material, if truly progressive, will show NO evidences of “combing” or interlacing on any of the frames. That should be visible right from your timeline in pause mode.
I understand your lack of confidence in your production crew giving you a straight answer. This camera has something like 81 different recordable formats. Different frame rates, resolutions, progressive vs interlaced. It’s quite easy for even a seasoned pro to get the settings wrong.
I have become so frustrated with receiving media recorded in the wrong format that I’ve taken to insisting that the assistant Camera person use their iPhone and take a picture of the settings on the camera monitor to email me BEFORE they start shooting. At the very least this gets them to THINK about what the settings should be and gives me a slim chance of getting the correct settings.
Hope this helps.
mark
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Mark,
Thanks so much for that insight. It’s all coming back to me now (I guess the DSR-20 would always show 29 frames per second in the window with miniDV since miniDV can only record 29.97 fps which is why there’s pulldown introduced to make 24p media in the first place!). I’ve checked out pulldown before but I can’t seem to tell what this is on this clip.
Here’s a 1 second sample clip with a big camera jerk for a good motion test that has just been exported straight out of FCP – can you tell what this was shot at? I can’t seem to pin it down. Again, this was captured with the 24p NTSC easy setup but it captured the media at 29.97.
https://www.definingfilms.com/test.mov
(note the show is of a Howard Stern type nature and the one second clip has a girl in a bikini)
Thanks,
Bryan
FCP / AVID EDITOR
Features : Television
http://www.DefiningFilms.com -
Bryan,
You can’t determine original recording format from anything posted on the internet. Too many things can happen in the process of creating a file for the web that will mask the original format. For example, you can set the compressor to “de interlace” the media for the web, removing all evidence of the original.
Sorry. You’re going to have to figure this one out yourself.
Mark
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Hey Mark –
This clip was exported “fat” out of FCP, just file export with “current settings” used so there’s no change of format going on here and then I just uploaded that file to my server. Hence why the clip is only 1 second, so the file size isn’t too big. I’ve done this before between post houses with no issue.
Can anyone tell what format this might have been shot in based on the test clip?
EDIT – after some more internet research and reading some old Ken Stone articles from 2005, it all came rushing back to me. SD 24p material with the 2:3 pulldown when you’re delivery is back to NTSC tape, you just capture and edit in the NTSC DV preset (29.97) as the 24p look is embedded in the footage, pulldown removal is not necessary. It’s been so long since I dealt with any SD footage and most of my HD footage is actually more simple to deal with as file based media tells you exactly what it is when you look at the file and HDV or XDCAM is simply HDV and HDCAM, we always go ProRes 1080… I had forgotten about SD! Anyways, think I got it now. Capture and edit SD 24p “normal” footage that is destined to go back to an NTSC tape for network delivery in NTSC DV 29.97 settings for capture and timeline. Also, if they accidentally shot some footage at 29.97 on the set or did in fact shoot everything at 24p normal, it’ll all properly fit on the same timeline.
Bryan
FCP / AVID EDITOR
Features : Television
http://www.DefiningFilms.com
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