How stable is PPro on your system when editing large projects?

[Erik Davis]

Heath,

You have really taken time to try and answer my question. Very nice of you. I am starting to realize that there must not be very many people doing Axio LE with XDCam HD yet. I guess I am closer to the bleeding edge than I normally would be but my situation forces me to make new equipment purchases quicker than usual.

I do know that some people have had problems on Intel machines, which haven’t had issues on Opteron machines.

Are any of the Opteron users contributors here on the COW? Should I be speaking to one of them directly?

I expect the problem to be resolved, hopefully in their next release.

Is this hope based on knowledge of issue priorities at Matrox?

since the Axio works with the native Long GOP files, not transcodes as Premiere and other programs do. It can do this because of the hardware acceleration.

I was trying to explain to a guy at WTVF here in Nashville about how Axio doesn’t have to transcode the long GOP and can output in realtime. He didn’t believe there was any solution that could do that and struggles somewhat with their Avid workflow and XDCam HD. What would be the best link to send him via email that shows clearly that there is a solution that includes realtime output of long GOP?

since I haven’t tried it, and don’t know what configuration the people who have encountered errors, have, I can’t say for sure.

Just to clarify, earlier you mentioned that you thought it might be an Opteron, Intel factor. What other configuration issues are you alluding to here?

Heath thanks again and I noticed that your profile says that you are relatively new to the COW with a start date of 11-07. You have quite a bit of technical knowledge are you a full-time editor?

Erik

[Erik Davis]

Hi Bob,

There is comfort in speaking to a former Edit*or. I would be mixing almost exclusively Beta SP and XDCAM HD. Which gets to the heart of another problem I am dealing with and will address last in my post.

Despite many frustrations with FCP, I haven’t seen a good enough reason to switch to PP.

Since Axio in theory bypasses the frustration you mentioned above what would be an example of a “good enough” reason to switch to PP/Axio?

Now, regarding the fact that I have 1000 (30) minute Beta SP tape library that I will need to duplicate within the next 60 days or so. Instead of just duping them all to Beta SP again I have considered dubbing them to a digital codec but which one? I was told that DVCam 25mbs which is an available option for archiving to XDCam is not good and has color/noise/degradation issues when coming from Beta SP. Someone recommended the DVCPro codec but I would need to set up an in-house digitizing station that could handle the ingesting of the 1000 tapes and then would of course have to forever deal with making the files live on a raid drive somewhere. Anybody doing massive Beta SP archiving?

Erik

[David Cherniack]

Eric,

I’m also on Axio HD.

I’m presently doing a 2 hr documentary with about 1200 HDV clips and another couple of hundred SD and HD archival clips. Add to that a few hundred stills and multiple layers and you have a situation that PPro can’t handle as a single project. I’ve split it up into 8, each based on a template project of all the HDV material. Each project is around 50 MB.

I still have to restart 3 or 4 times a day as PPro runs out of memory. Part of the issue is that the Axio drivers also use a lot of resources and add a degree of complexity to the system that simple software editing using io cards don’t have to deal with.

The bottom line is that PPro has memory issues that may not be fully solved until the Adobe suite moves to 64 bits. Who knows when that will happen? The analogy with Microsoft is very apt. Adobe is too successful as a company to worry about professional editors and their needs in any truly meaningful way. If they did the memory issues would have been solved by version 2.

My take on the problems with PPro is that they stem back to version 1.0. Whoever was responsible for the design left it with a host of architectural and workability issues that we’ll be dancing around for the next 3 releases, if they ever get solved.

All that said, PPro with Axio is a very workable solution and does things that would make many high end Avid users green with envy. It’s just not perfect, requires a lot of workarounds, and can never approach the long form dexterity of discreet edit*.

David

[Alex Udell]

Bill….

“Even Michael Bay would have a hard time making a film with that many cuts in it. ”

This made me laugh out loud.

And now back to the discussion…

Alex

[Erik Davis]

David,
I was hoping you would give insight on the issue as I had heard that you are nearly in the same boat as me.

Part of the issue is that the Axio drivers also use a lot of resources and add a degree of complexity to the system that simple software editing using io cards don’t have to deal with.

Did you ever give serious consideration to either FCP or Avid? Would you do anything differently considering the pretty major workarounds going on with PP now?

The analogy with Microsoft is very apt. Adobe is too successful as a company to worry about professional editors and their needs in any truly meaningful way.

And so the question comes up as to whether there is really any company out there that is focused on our niche industry or are we just too small of a market to ever have a trully professional tool to work with? Is it simply big bucks equals real professional tools, small to medium bucks equals hodge podge tools?

All that said, PPro with Axio is a very workable solution and does things that would make many high end Avid users green with envy.

What would be the top three things you would list here? If I were to ante up for a decent new Media Composer system, would my long form problems go away? Please keep in mind that the only software I have ever edited on is Discreet Edit!

It’s just not perfect, requires a lot of workarounds, and can never approach the long form dexterity of discreet edit*.

I have already committed to the XDCam HD workflow for archiving 16×9 HD at an affordable price but am wondering if I should just purchase a SDI breakout box for my 6.5 Edit and stick it out for awhile. (The PDF-75 XDCam machine will down convert SD in real time.) I will still be delivering SD Masters for the short-term foreseeable future so maybe I should just hold and wait.

I am actually going to be moving overseas in May so there are specific tax benefits to buying a new system now as opposed to buying later but maybe I will have to wait after all.

Thanks very much David.

Erik

[Dave Friend]

Hi Erik,

I have spent a lot of time using an Axio SD system. It tends to be more stable than a non-hardware assisted PPro set-up but not completely so. I haven’t been able to determine exactly where the break point is in terms of project size and/or complexity. But there is one, and it is a source of constant sorrow. (Olde Tyme music up and under.)(I watched O Brother, Where Art Thou? again yesterday and the song is stuck in my head.)

Until Adobe can address the issue and make Premiere Pro as stable as the other applications in the Adobe lineup I cannot give a whole-hearted endorsement.

I have not used cs3 to any great extent and not at all in conjunction with Axio. Most of the posts I’ve read about cs3 maintain that it is better than previous releases in regard to large project stability. Jack’s post (at the start of this thread) is the first (that I recall) which details that it ain’t so. We will be upgrading the Axio SD system to cs3 early in January before we begin a new, marginally complex, project. I will report back what happens.

Dave

[David Cherniack]

Hi Erik,

[Erik Davis] “Did you ever give serious consideration to either FCP or Avid? Would you do anything differently considering the pretty major workarounds going on with PP now?”

I don’t think so. Basically, from what I gather from informed sources, there’s gotcha’s in each system out there. If you go to each forum you’ll see people screaming just as loudly as here. Of the big three, no one blows the other two away. So it’s a matter of pick’em. However if you’re main concern is media management it seems that Avid is head and shoulders above the other two in that area.

[Erik Davis] “What would be the top three things you would list here? If I were to ante up for a decent new Media Composer system, would my long form problems go away? Please keep in mind that the only software I have ever edited on is Discreet Edit!”

With Axio: Real Time (on color effects and graphics moves) terrific sound features, superb integration with the other members of the Suite. As far as integration Adobe wins hands down. AFAIK there’s no problems with long form in Avid.

I can’t speak to XDCamHD. Other Axio users seem very happy with the RT performance, though.

AFA edit* goes it’s been left behind long ago by the features of today’s NLEs so any comparison is moot. I will say this though. I enjoyed editing on edit* 80% of the time. On PPro it’s less than that on average. On a good day more..on a bad day, a lot less. On edit* I had momentary homicidal impulses directed at those responsible for the keyframer. On PPro…well, maybe it’s better left unsaid, but if I ever find myself sitting on a plane next to the product manager of 1.0 it will be a supreme test of my commitment to non-violence 🙂

Good luck with whatever you choose.

David

[Bob Cole]

[Erik Davis] “Now, regarding the fact that I have 1000 (30) minute Beta SP tape library that I will need to duplicate within the next 60 days or so. Instead of just duping them all to Beta SP again I have considered dubbing them to a digital codec but which one?”

Digital, definitely, but no matter what digital format you choose, you’ll have to keep recopying it. Take a look at yesterday’s NY Times Business section article on how Hollywood has discovered that archiving digital sources is much more expensive than film!

Format — 25mbps seems a little small but I suspect that the color space issue is the real biggie.

Are you digitizing for archival purposes or for ready access?
If the former, you may want to recopy your files immediately onto LTO-3 tapes, as they seem more “archival” than hard drives, DVDs, etc. But who really knows?

MacPro 2 x 3GHz dualcore; 10 GB 667MHz
Kona LHe
Sony HDV Z1
Sony HDV M25U
HD-Connect MI
Betacam UVW1800
DVCPro AJ-D650

[Craig Brooks]

I know this wasn’t supposed to a bash, but I guess it’s hard to talk about NLEs without some passion. That being said, here’s my two cents.

1. I make everything from :30 spots to full length docs and I sell my work for a living, so my toolset is important.

2. I’ve tried about every known PC based NLE on the planet including Avid. And after 2 years of pain and expense I switched to the Mac and haven’t looked back.

3. Both platforms have their issues, but Apple draws the creative crowd, ergo, the creative software customers.

4. Adobe came back to the Mac platform for many reasons. Of importance is the recognition that there’s a considerable market share being overlooked. The other is that they didn’t draw the after-market crowd they hoped to pull over to the Windows platform.

5. On a head-to-toe MAC solution, Apple can influence the hardware and software experience to a greater extent than Microsoft. (This also applies to AVID dedicated systems as well.) To me, this is the most important factor in creating a stable environment.

All in all, any system can choke given tons of footage and a lack of adequate resources, but my final take is that Apple has nailed down a pretty decent offering with FCP and their hardware. I also use AE with very few problems. Granted it doesn’t integrate as well as the entire Apple suite, but it gets the job done.

If you think you have it rough, try editing on Linux.

– Play friendly,

-CIAO

[Baz Leffler]

I have to agree pretty much with what Craig has said, especially when it comes to productivity as I also rely on my NLE toolset to make a living.

But I work with practical examples and I defy anyone to beat this…

I am currently working on a series shot HDV and to be mastered to HDCAM. I did one episode in Premiere; started it using CS3 and had to start again using PPro 2 due to major failings of CS3’s HDV capabilities. I also had major problems with PPro 2 but at least I was able to get the episode finished. It took 3 weeks to do due to the continual ‘compile errors’ and ‘.. running very low on memory’ amoungst many other deficiencies; and it is very powerful computer system.

So I decided to do the next episode on a Mac using my FCP. It is a meager G5 with dual 2g processors and 1g ram. No crashes, no memory errors; all up for the entire episode…. 4 DAYS! Yep, compare 15 days using Adobe and 4 days using an underpowered FCP; and I am new to FCP so I wasn’t anywhere as proficient with it as I am with Premiere.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding!

Now what to do with my $20K PC/Adobe HD piece of crap….

Baz

What would I do without the ‘UNDO’ button!!!!