How do I present ideas to a client while still keeping the ideas as my own?

[Tim Wilson]

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] ” If a “client” ask a “supplier” to provide an idea. Then should the “client” use the idea, the “supplier” has the right to charge for it. For this to be enforceable, one needs to establish a business relationship. “

Yeah, you can charge for it if the client asks, but only if the client feels like it. It’s perfectly legal for a client to say, “Hey Stephen, pitch me an idea like THIS,” and Stephen pitches it, the client says “No thanks,” and then does it themselves exactly like he pitched it. It’s not common, but it has happened to people in this very forum. And while skeevy, it’s 100% legal.

The point being: ideas have no protection, even in a business relationship.

That’s actually written into American law. You can’t contain an idea in a contract. It’s the reason why American trademarks and patents expire. Ideas are SUPPOSED to float free. They belong to everyone. It’s the American Way.

(In fact with trademarks and patents, it’s not just the idea that floats free — in many cases the actual WORK can float free, for you to do with as you please. Hence Pride & Prejudice & Zombies. Ready to print and sell your own edition of Moby-Dick? Go for it. You don’t even need to include the hyphen if you don’t want to.)

Your problem Mads is that, over there in the UK, things are much more civilized. LOL

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou

The typos here are most likely because I’m, a) typing this on my phone; and b) an idiot.

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

[Tim Wilson] “Your problem Mads is that, over there in the UK, things are much more civilized”

Ha, yes. Well, actually no.

However, Pride & Prejudice & Zombies and Moby-Dick are bad examples as the Authors’ copyright has expired. So it is only the print version that you’re using that you’ve got to make sure is over 75 years old – anyway, this takes us away from the discussion in hand.

Let me spell out my reasoning more clearly 😉
Stephen will not be charging for his idea per say, instead he will charge for the time spend on creating the idea – in order to do so, he needs to establish a relationship with the client. There is a number of devices that he can employ in order to establish a relationship.

And yes, if the client doesn’t like Stephen’s idea, then he could agree that they don’t have to pay him – everybody wins…

Does that help?

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Mark Suszko]

It *used* to be the American way. Not to get too political here, but American copyright law is a mess because corporate interests, Disney foremost among them, successfully bought-off Congress to keep extending copyright protections way beyond what would be fair to the estates of the original creators, and to lock everything up so that guys like us are afraid to let anything appear in our frame for fear of a lawsuit.

Meanwhile, the overly protective laws breed contempt and defiance by the “small fry” like wedding guys and in-house producers, creating a piratical atmosphere. We sit in a situation where following every nuance of the statutes is ridiculously complex and discouraging to the law-abiding, but the punishments for minor infractions are obscenely overdone. It can’t change until we change the laws, and we can’t change the laws unless we’re billionaires.

[Nick Griffin]

I may be late to this thread, but I’m also probably one of the few who has literally gone to court over a client stealing an idea.

Several years ago when more of our work was in print than it is today we had a client who, while a massive conglomerate in the food industry, had traditionally shown little faith in advertising and promotion. And had, over the years, budgeted accordingly.

Then one day I was told that all of that was about to change. One of the sons of the conglomerate’s founder, and a highly placed sales executive in one of the divisions — let’s call him Junior A*hole — came to me with his vision for launching a new brand, spending healthy sums of money and “doing it up right.”

On the basis of his meetings I brought on an extremely talented copywriter, an outside art director who specialized in branding and a very senior media planner. We developed a brand concept, a catchy tag line, a unique logo and a detailed marketing plan and a “doing it up right” media plan and budget.

After several weeks of working this up I presented this comprehensive approach to Junior A*hole. It was well received but I was told, “We’ll get back to you.” Two weeks later when I again inquired I received the same answer. A month later still no decision. Mind you we were still doing small jobs for a division of this organization so I had reason to stay in contact without being a pest. Finally, after a few months had passed I was told “No. We won’t be doing that. Too much money, the old man (A*hole Sr.) will never agree to this. Just forget about it.”

Jump ahead about a year and a half, and there, sitting on the shelf of a large grocery chain, are their packages with OUR LOGO and OUR TAGLINE. The next scene is of me dashing between multiple grocery stores to confirm that this isn’t a limited market test, but apparently a widely available product. I could have driven to several other states to see just how widespread the distribution was, but surely the client would be reasonable and AT LEAST be willing to compensate us for the logo. You’d think that, right?

“What are you talking about? That was just an idea you had,” states Junior A*hole. “Ideas are free. Everybody has IDEAS. We just gave this to the people who provide our packaging and they put it on our packages.” Attempts to find a more reasonable response from others we knew within the conglomerate met with no success and I was advised to “just move on.” Which I did. To my law firm.

We filed suit based on (and here’s where my memory may not serve me fully) unfair competition based on their original mis-representation that we would be making a lot of money off the “doing it up right” media expenditure. This then proceeded through multiple depositions of both sides and it was fun watching Junior A*hole’s flop sweat under deposition questioning.

The defense attorneys came back with their claim that because some yogurt — an entirely un-related food type — in Canada (no less) used to have the same tagline (unbeknownst to me and my team) our whole suit was therefore invalid and would likely lose at trial. I proceeded to trial.

After a few hours of voi dire of potential jury members, the judge made one last attempt to push us to settle before going to court the next morning. The defense finally offered us a mid-five figure settlement and I accepted it, mostly on the basis of being a little spooked by the contention that our tagline was not original.

The sad coda to this tale of a legal battle over intellectual property is that, when all was said and done to get to that point, all but about $5,000 of the settlement was eaten by legal fees to my attorneys. And who says nobody ever wins in these kinds of lawsuits? The lawyers do EVERYTIME.

So I don’t fully disagree with the earlier posts, but I have pursued justice for having work stolen and won. Kind of.

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Hey Nick,

Well done for sticking to your guns! As much as the lawyers got the fees, you got to feel that you did the right thing, and that is often worth a lot more than the cash.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Tim Wilson]

Nick, you’re an inspiration to us all. it’s great to hear a story where the guy who SHOULD win actually DOES win. I’m proud to know you.

For the purposes if the conversation though, note that logo, tagline, copy, etc. are WORK, which is protected. The idea for, say the campaign and its execution, wouldn’t have been. Kids, look up “idea-expression divide.” Idea: no legal protection. Expression: legal protection.

I was afraid I said it too strongly in my previous post, but I clearly didn’t say it strongly enough: do not even THINK about an NDA.

I’m not scolding anyone on this thread, I promise. This comes up every couple of years, and I’m terrified that some day, somebody might be persuaded that it’s a good idea. It’s not.

I would be horrified to have a Business & Marketing forum where anybody came away thinking that an NDA is even vaguely a good thing in these circumstances. in fact, I hope that one of our most enduring legacies is to make sure that this potential disaster never ensues. not kidding, even a little.

Here are a tiny handful of reasons why should never utter those three letters in this context again:

• They’re not applicable because THE LAW DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS USE OF THEM.
• They’re not binding because THE LAW DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS USE OF THEM.
• They create an atmosphere of mistrust
• The person you pitch to may not be authorized to sign NDAs…
• …and seriously bro – how many NDAs have you signed? One? Two? None? It’s just not done outside of very specific conditions, NONE OF WHICH ARE IDEAS.
• The person you pitch it to thinks its a terrible idea and resents that you wasted even MORE of their time with the NDA.
• The person you pitch to may not be authorized to sign NDAs…
• …and seriously bro – how many NDAs have you signed? One? Two? None? I’ve been in news and PR in this industry for 20+ years, and have signed maybe 6 or 8. I’ve worked at publicly traded companies who guard their secret like trolls protect gold and have asked people to sign NDAs twice. It’s just not done outside of very specific conditions, NONE OF WHICH ARE IDEAS.
• An NDA is an implied threat.Seriously, ask yourself: do you want a client to listen to your pitch while wondering if you’re going to try to sue them? Insanity.
• Although rather than make them afraid, it’ll show them that YOU’RE afraid. Clients smell fear.
• The person you pitch it to thinks its a terrible idea and resents that you wasted even MORE of their time with the NDA.
• Are you sure it’s original? REALLY REALLY sure? Imagine making your NDA-d pitch (although I beseech you to NEVER EVER EVER consider such a thing) and the client says, “Turn on Channel 972. Your idea is on TV RIGHT NOW.” I’ve never met anybody more thorough than Nick, yet somebody had come up with the same tagline without him finding out. How far out on a limb are you willing to go to expose your research skills?

This is a short, short list. You can Google “idea-expression divide” to come up with case law dating back to Article 1 of the US Constitution (home of the Copyright Act) for a bunch more.

Here’s the biggest reason to never, ever consider asking for an NDA. (Aside from the fact that they’re neither relevant nor binding when pitching ideas.) You are not a troll. You are not a prospector in 1849. Your gold is not a pile of rocks that you’re sitting on, with you willing to kill anyone who comes close.

You are a creative person. Coming up with great ideas is your JOB. More than that, it’s your NATURE. You want people to feel comfortable that you come up with great ideas as easily as you fart because THAT’S WHAT YOU DO. You’re an idea guy. If they work with you, they’ll never run out of great ideas because YOU’LL never run out of great ideas.

(Don’t forget that there are entire swaths of this industry, from advertising to joke writing, where pretty much your ONLY job is coming up with great ideas.)

If you really feel like this is your one and only golden ticket, that you’ll never have an idea this good again so you have to do everything possible to protect it — at your age? This is best you’re going to have for the rest of your career? It’s gonna be a short one.

Trust yourself. Relax. Enjoy the ride. Enjoy the power that comes from knowing that nobody can steal ALL of your great ideas, because your great ideas keep coming. They are relentless, and so are you.

And don’t forget how rich people have gotten not just with crappy ideas, but ideas that are crappy and derivative of other people’s crappy ideas.

And don’t forget, no kidding man, great ideas are all around. The way to keep people from taking them from you and running with them themselves is if you convince them that you’ve got the goods for actually MAKING MONEY with the idea, which is actually an entirely different skill set – and most clients know that.

But mostly trust yourself to have more than one great idea.

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW Magazine
Twitter: timdoubleyou

The typos here are most likely because I’m, a) typing this on my phone; and b) an idiot.

[Nick Griffin]

[Tim Wilson] “Nick, you’re an inspiration to us all. it’s great to hear a story where the guy who SHOULD win actually DOES win.”

Puh-lease!! Mine is not a tale of good winning over evil, it’s a cautionary tale of the actual cost of time and emotion just to achieve a meager settlement with the actual net result being to further enrich a couple of law firms.

When I read here on the Biz COW about people wanting to go to court over debts owed or transgressions committed I want to give them a jolt of reality. Perhaps now I have.

[Mads Nybo jørgensen]

Just to add to Tim’s last post – NDA’s (& mutual NDA’s) are quite common in many other industries and government organisations, and rightfully so. However, you need to know how to use them + they probably won’t be a good thing if you’re in the business of Social Media and/or distributing other people’s content 😉

Again, for those who didn’t get it, NDA is only one of several ways to establish a business relationship – which is the basic fabric for making any future claims, should such unfortunate experience had to happen.

Stephen, do whatever you feel comfortable with. But it is true to say, that you just have to trust your potentially new client, or you’ll never get to do any business at all.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
https://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk

[Stephen Pickering]

Hi everyone,

I really appreciate your input in this. I totally agree that ideas are all over. I hate when I see a super creative commercial and think to myself, “Man, I wish I had thought of that!!”

I’ll let you know how things unfold, but I’m really looking forward to building this relationship with the client. And just to give a little context, this is not a $30,000 project. It’s much, much smaller 🙂

Just a quick question, are films copyrighted because they are completed pieces of work? Is Fargo just an idea which I could re-film myself, or am I misunderstanding something?