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hdv codec vs. animation codec
Hey all,
A little backstory, then the question…
I shoot HDV, and generally bring my footage into After Effects for color correction, etc, once I’ve captured the footage in FCP. I’ve also recently upgraded to Final Cut Pro Studio 2.0…
Anyway, I ALWAYS use the animation codec when I “make movie” out of After Effects. My file sizes are always large, and usually, I can’t even play the Quicktime movie because is somehow jerky and seems to stress my video card. Once I bring the footage into Final Cut, however, it plays nicely and all is well.
Anyway, I brought some footage into AE 7.0 last night, did my usual color correction, and then exported as QT using the Animation codec, best quality. Now, when I bring the footage into FCP, it doesn’t seem to want to play nicely, it skips, it stops, it’s jerky, etc…very different than what happened in my previous version of FCP.
So, I dropped my color-corrected, AE-generated footage into FCP and it gave me the “would you like use this clips settings for your sequence” and I said yes… and although I didn’t need to transcode, the footage is jerky. The original footage plays beautifully…
Of course I realize Final Cut is interpreting the footage differently.
So, I looked at the properties of my Animation codec footage and it’s something like 132MB/sec versus 3.5 Megs per second of my native HDV footage. As well, a 28 second clip rendered out of AE using the Animation codec was 2.6 gigs, and this is just straight HDV with some curves applied…certainly not a major overhaul.
Then, it hit me to render out the AE footage using HDV1080i60, which is what it was in the first place. The same 28 second clip was now only 83 megs (3.5 megs per second, just like it was when I brought it in). It looked the same to me as the Animation codec version, and it played beautifully both as a stand-alone quicktime as well as being a way smaller file. All my color changes seemed to be represented faithfully.
Sorry for the long-winded-ness, but my question:
Am I further “recompressing” the footage by choosing the HDV codec out of AE? Or am I just pretty much keeping it the same as it was? I can’t, for the life of me see a difference between a 2.6 gig version of the file versus an 83 meg version of the file.
What am I picking up using the Animation codec (I’m assuming it’s things like Alpha channel support, etc). But if I’m just doing basic sweetening of the colors, is there a reason to bloat the file when the HDV codec seems to accomplish the same thing with far less overhead and no apparent difference in quality?
Hope this is clear. I’ve read some other threads on this, but haven’t been able to easily find the answer. And I guess while I’m at it, when would one use the Animation codec, given my situation?
Thank you!
Gino Guarnere
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10 Replies
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[pixeldustfilms] “Am I further “recompressing” the footage by choosing the HDV codec out of AE?”
Yes. AE recompresses everything.
“I can’t, for the life of me see a difference between a 2.6 gig version of the file versus an 83 meg version of the file.”
To see the difference (wait for it!) in AE, drag one clip over the other, then set the mode of the top one to “difference”. Roll your mouse over the comp window, and check the info palette. The higher the RGB values, the more difference there is between the clips. If you see (0,0,0) all the time, the clips are identical.
If you see little difference now though, try recompressing to HDV a few times and test again.
“What am I picking up using the Animation codec (I’m assuming it’s things like Alpha channel support, etc). But if I’m just doing basic sweetening of the colors, is there a reason to bloat the file when the HDV codec seems to accomplish the same thing with far less overhead and no apparent difference in quality?”
Consider Photo-JPEG or 8-bit uncompressed. HDV will kill you on multiple compressions, and can slow down your work. You should work in an I-frame codec, which contains full info for every frame and does not need the processor to create the frames in-between.
“And I guess while I’m at it, when would one use the Animation codec, given my situation?”
It’s an intermediate codec, used when passing a high-quality clip between apps. Photo-JPEG is a lower-quality alternate, but it’s used by stock houses, so it’s a useful compromise. Microcosm is an alternative. Others may have other suggestions.
HDV is an acquisition codec. Its only other use is when editing HDV material with no compositing.By the way, Animation is not meant to be played back smoothly as is, given current hardware. You do RAM previews of the compositing when you need to, and if you want to see the whole thing, you make a movie in a playback-friendly format such as Photo-JPEG or your final codec. Avoid the urge to see your entire clip at highest quality.
Anybody else?
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[pixeldustfilms] “Am I further “recompressing” the footage by choosing the HDV codec out of AE?”
Yes.
[pixeldustfilms] “What am I picking up using the Animation codec (I’m assuming it’s things like Alpha channel support, etc).”
Lossless compression (though, as you’ve noticed, not usually very much compression).
[pixeldustfilms] “I’ve read some other threads on this, but haven’t been able to easily find the answer. And I guess while I’m at it, when would one use the Animation codec, given my situation?”
If you don’t see any drastic differences on a monitor in your footage after Rendering to HDV from AE then you can probably get away with it, it’s up to you. Rest assured that you are recompressing the footage, and if it is recompressed again and again (going to tape?) the generational losses will begin to be evident.
In addition, FCP recompresses your footage with it’s native codec by default whenever you render in FCP (cross dissolves, color correction, etc).
Darby Edelen
DVD Menu Artist
Left Coast Digital
Aptos, CA -
Both great answers, and I thank you for the start…I will do the experiment with the “difference” mode toggled in AE this evening…
So, I guess now I’m a little more curious:
When doing a “final” render of HDV footage out of AE, what is the best choice of codec that balances quality and economy of file size (if there is such a thing)?
And is Photo-JPEG an acceptable choice for final rendering?
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It all depends on your final deliverable and playback platform.
DVD?
Hard drive for client?
Hard drive for you and your friends?
Web?
Another editor? -
DVD? Yes
Hard drive for client? Yes
Hard drive for you and your friends? Yes
Web? Yes
Another editor? Yes🙂 LOL
I’d say, as a rule, most things that come out of AE wind up back in FCP, where I do further editing, etc…then I go out from FCP using Compressor…
So, let’s say as a rule…things will end up on a DVD in many cases, and in most of those cases, I’d usually choose to make a web version using Sorenson Compression Suite.
Does that help?
G -
There is no general way to do things in the professional world in this context. It all depends on where the file is going and what is happening to it.
If a file is going to be recompressed to MPEG-2 for DVD, you should render to the Animation codec first, then compress to MPEG-2. If you’re short on space, use Photo-JPEG.
If a file is being sent to a client via e-mail, you can do quick and dirty Sorenson 320×240 or WMV.
If you just want to watch it on your HD, use Photo-JPEG or try H.264.
For web, it’s the same as DVD: render to Animation before recompressing. But if your webvid will be 320×240, 15 fps, you can also render to Anim at those settings, then recompress that.
For another editor, ask that editor what he/she wants from you.
For going to FCP, that’s more complex. You could render to Anim, then drop that into your sequence, but you’d have to re-render it to the sequence settings anyway. So it would be fine to render out of AE to your sequence settings in FCP in that case, as long as there’s no re-rendering (effects) planned within FCP.
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[pixeldustfilms] “I’d say, as a rule, most things that come out of AE wind up back in FCP, where I do further editing, etc…then I go out from FCP using Compressor…”
If you render out of AE in a compressed format then FCP will recompress it using that codec whenever it renders. This means that if you’re using cross dissolves or effects/color corrections in FCP your footage could end up being re-compressed several times.
If you want the best possible quality you should do your editing in FCP before you go to AE, then use something like Automatic Duck to import the edits into AE. Make your color-corrections, etc. in AE. Your final render should be out of AE in a lossless codec, you can then use compressor to make several different files using different codecs from this lossless file.
This is really for nit-picky perfectionists, and even then it seems unnecessary since your original footage wasn’t lossless, but it is the best way to preserve as much of the original footage’s quality as possible.
Darby Edelen
DVD Menu Artist
Left Coast Digital
Aptos, CA -
And it looks like the animation codec is lossless, so I guess I’m back where I started!
Gino
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Ok, Steve…
“To see the difference (wait for it!) in AE, drag one clip over the other, then set the mode of the top one to “difference”. Roll your mouse over the comp window, and check the info palette. The higher the RGB values, the more difference there is between the clips. If you see (0,0,0) all the time, the clips are identical.”
I put the rendered-with-the-hdv codec file on top of the rendered-with-the-animation-codec file in AE, made the top layer mode “difference” and then rolled the mouse all around the comp…(not sure if the stacking order of the layers matters, so let me know).
On the whole, there is a difference. I’m not sure what constitutes a “large” difference vs. an imperceptible one, but I’m seeing a lot of R: 8 G: 4 B:7 and numbers somewhere in that range no matter where I drag my cursor.
Let me know your thoughts on my findings, and in the meantime, I’ll try an 8bit uncompressed version and a few others and see where they stack up.
Thanks again,
Gino
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Steve,
Disregard my findings…not sure what I was seeing, but the RGB is WAY different between the two, with the blue channel being the most obvious…
Back to the drawing board!
Gino
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