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HDCAM SR vs ProRes 4444
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Delivery is of course a different story all together. I primarily question ProRes as a true high-end post format. Advertising-delivery in Sweden now fully file-based. MPEG2, i-frame only @ 30 Mbit and WAV audio. Our Digibeta use has gone down a ton I can tell you. Sad part here is Compressor can’t deliver legal files for this (Episode can however).
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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An important thing to differ is however comparing equal codecs or formats vs on-another. DPX vs TIFF hold similar abilities. TIFF vs PSD hold similar abilities. 16-bit TIFF vs 12-bit ProRes, in pure quality, the former will most likely always win. But you end up comparing the container as well and a bunch of other things.
We’re an FCP house also and well… we’ll see what happens. There aren’t really any other options out there at the moment (Premier is as far as I’ve understood still playing quite a lot of catch up to FCP given it has developed extremely fast).
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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[Mark Raudonis] “It is the networks or studios who dictate a delivery format, not the post houses. So all of this debate is MOOT!”
Truer words were never typed!
Arnie
Post production is not an afterthought!
https://www.arniepix.com/ -
[Hector berrebi] “also, HDCAM SR has an HQ mode with 880 Mbs and 2:1 compression ratio
which ProRes is quite far from… “Ok this is a MOOT POINT People!
Since most of you are looking at the number only and NOT the functionality of the decks that support it.
the 880Mbps capture on SR is almost never sued for single camera capture at that data rate, it is enabled for DUAL STREAM (stereo) recording so both channel are at 440Mbps . Other than the very rare tests it is data overload for virtually all systems.
also how many of you have ever even SEEN an SRW1 or SRW 5800 deck with the correct hardware to handle that compression? EH? Those are the only 2 decks that can be configured to handle that data flow, and the upgrade is some ridiculous amount on top of the +$100K decks.
Get Real.
Per Russell’s comment on my ProRes article ( thanks), I am about 1/2 thru updating it to include the 2 new version of ProRes and it will post late august or early September, This has pushed back my testing and comparison of all the current 10bit capture codecs to the fall.
Mike Curtis and I worked together on the Macworld article that just came out (I do the tech stuff)
and does offer minor insights into the codec.gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
[Russell Lasson] “Excellent find! I couldn’t find a data rate for 12-bit uncompressed,”
a 12 bit video signal is 2,225 Mbps without the alpha channel
its just shy of 400 Megs a second.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
[gary adcock]“Ok this is a MOOT POINT People!”
gary… this thread started as an informative comparison between ProRes4444 and HDCAM SR, my comment was purely informative, and although it is a rare and specific workflow, it does exist, and is one of the format’s published characteristics.
i didn’t suggest that it is the common use of SR, i even added “also”,
nor did i mention it to rub it in ProRes’s face.
i love ProRes and (unlike SR) i use it all the time.
specs are specs..
no reason to make a moot out of me… 🙂
Hector Berrebi
Schibber Group
prePost Consulting -
Looking forward to your articles Gary. Good luck with all that testing!
-Russ
Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Color Mill
Salt Lake City, UT
http://www.colormill.net -
[Hector berrebi] “gary… this thread started as an informative comparison between ProRes4444 and HDCAM SR, my comment was purely informative, and although it is a rare and specific workflow, it does exist, and is one of the format’s published characteristics.
“hector,
I have had this discussion with you at NAB, it is back to the same theory vs reality discussion I had with you in Vegas.
What is the point of comparing to something that is NOT an actual workflow but a published specification on a deck that you have never worked on (there maybe 1 or 2 SRW1’s that are capable of this type of capture in all of Israel)
My question is why are you comparing ProRes to a HDCAM SR format that is not used in the context you describing ? So what are comparing ProRes too, some obtuse theory?
When you can compare something this is a little closer to what is the accepted reality? I know that you are talking out of school, as you told me you did not have access to this level of gear for your work
As I stated before that your comparing a single camera capture at 880 Mb/ps data stream on SR tape, (NOT recommended by Sony). The 880HQ setting is designed to allow for the highest quality capture with working with Dual Link or Dual Stream sources, ie: 2 channels of video, so the maximum any single channel can capture at is 440Mbps, to a intermediate editing codec like ProRes that allows ALL FCP users to maintain your data’s ” Original Integrity” at a higher bit depth?
So you are willing to compare to a “lesser compression” on SR tape, but you make no mention of the loss of over 3000 levels of grey? Oh and it records as 10bit video format, but ProRes 4444 is a 12 bit container having 4096 levels of grey.
hector,
its about managing expectations of the people reading your words here, I can quote any number technical theories to back all this up, yet I find it better to keep a real world balance when making claims comparing formats, tools, and ideas.If you have done work with an SRW deck at 880Mbps, I take all of this back, I have worked in that format and all of the incumbent problems that ensued from working at the very limit of the technology. I can tell you from personal experience that all the theory in the world did not make the footage record, playback or archive any better than it would have at 440Mbps, It just used up the tape twice as fast.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production WorkflowsCheck out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php -
[gary adcock] ” I can tell you from personal experience that all the theory in the world did not make the footage record, playback or archive any better than it would have at 440Mbps, It just used up the tape twice as fast. “
Well put. Theory doesn’t mean anything in the real world. If all the theories that the engineers put forth actually worked in reality, we’d all be a lot happier in our work!
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards.
Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post
Biscardi Creative MediaCreative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. -
Very solid replies Gary!
My first question is how well ProRes 4444 will perform in current established post-chains we deal with here when we scan film. We’ve used one of two workflows:
a) Film > Telecine > HDCAM SR > Uncompressed 10-bit 1080i50 in FCP
b) Film > Telecine > HDCAM SR > Digibeta > Uncompressed 10-bit PAL FCPThe Telecine we in general deal with state they scan ALL their work to HDCAM SR. I can’t testify if this is the general 440 Mbit 4:2:2 setting or something else however.
Now, if we where to ask for ProRes 4444 from the telecine I’m quite sure their workflow would be:
Film > Telecine > HDCAM SR > ProRes 4444
Wouldn’t this just introduce double compression transport stage? If a device linke the AJA KI Pro where to replace the HDCAM deck I think a small “revolution” might be in place IF ProRes 4444 holds it’s ground.
All the above is talking about ProRes 4444 a transport codec. This will also always be file-based with it’s pros and cons. My second and main question is, since it’s what I deal with a lot more on a day-to-day basis, it’s ability to work as a finishing format compared to Uncompressed or Animation across generations and in heavy post-works flows.
Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Communication
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