HD resolutions… Correct forum?

[John Sharaf]

Jason,

Very astute question. Problem is that at 1920×1080 60p is a massive amount of data, capable of being recorded only in the HDCAM-SR format which records 880mbs (and also slo-mo disc recorders like those used for pro sports broadcasts). Essentially this frame rate has been referred to up until now as “the holy grail”. 720 can and does run at this rate because it uses less bandwidth, but 1080 would clog all means of broadcast and other forms of distribution and playback.

That is not to say that in the future (Moore’s Law) methods of recording and transmitting this much data will not be possible. Until then the viability of 720p continues.

JS

[Bram Desmet]

“I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone (editing) with 720 at 60 frames per second.”
That really surprises me. 1280x720p60 is very common. It is the broadcast standard adopted by many of the largest networks and a lot of material is edited/delivered, etc. as such…

1080p60 doesn’t ‘kill’ 720p60 because the storage/bandwidth needs increase substantially so there is the very real issue of cost to deal with…also, keep in mind that most transmission systems don’t currently support 1080p60 so adoption of this format at all levels is seriously hampered. In terms of performance though 1080p60 is the best of all worlds b/c you have both the high resolution and the high progressive frame rate.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com

[John Sharaf]

Bram,

I am (unfortunately) editing a project in 720 60p at the moment and I can tell you that it uses a lot of storage.

I shot a documentary this past summer using the first generation of the Sony PDW700 camera. At the time 1080/24p had not been implemented (although it is now with v1.5 software and an optional software “key” upgrade), but at the time the camera contained a “24 over 60” speed, essentially writing a 2:3 pulldown over the 60 frames, “like the Varicam does” I was told and thought.

Unfortunately it did not work like the Varicam, as it did not write “A” frames in the user bit to identify the beginning of the cadence nor did it even conform to the SMPTE RP188 standard which aligns the 00 frames of time code to the beginning of the cadence. As a result, even though I still have the 24p “effect” I could not use FCP nor AJA Kona to “pull the 24’s” and create a 24p timeline which would use only 40% of the storage space I must use at 60p.

As a work around, if we end up going to a filmmout at the end we can use a fancy box called “Alcemist” to jigger the frames back and forth to find the cadence and create a “reverse telecine” in on-line.

Needless to say in the latest software Sony has fixed this problem, at least as conforming to RP188 and all my cameras have the 1080/24 option installed which of course is the preferred method.

Long story, but yes, sometimes (once in my life), I’ve edited in 60p.

Also consider the “Showscan” experiment of Dulton Trumble many years ago where they shot tests of shooting film and projecting it at 60 fps. It was an incredible experience to view on a large screen (as I did one day long ago in Westwood Village) where film actually looked like television. Obviously the expense of shooting, processing and printing 2.5 times as much stock as conventional 24fps cinema and the conversion of the projectors doomed this experiment because of economics.

JS

[Jason Brown]

[Bram Desmet] “That really surprises me. 1280x720p60 is very common. It is the broadcast standard adopted by many of the largest networks and a lot of material is edited/delivered, etc. as such… “

I was speaking about my “small circle of friends” who are mostly lower end HDV users. The EX3 is the camera I’ve seen most of them use and in 720 they use the 60 frames played back at half speed. Everything they produce is almost always for web delivery or iphone…or possibly some sort of media player.

That’s great information Bram…I don’t produce things for broadcast…so I’m really interested in how to maximize quality and formats…

Do you know if there are limitations on Blu-Ray? I’ve heard the reference to 1080p in regards to blu-ray playback, is that 60p or 30p?

Thanks for your continued answers…I’m getting alot from this discussion.

-Jason

[John Sharaf]

Jason,

Blu-Ray would necessarily leverage the same rational if editing in a 24p timeline (of material shot that way like 100% of movies) so that it wcould fit feature length material (90-120 minutes or more) within it’s storage capacity. The player hardware then does the telecine out to 60p were it repeates 2 then three frames in cadence to “stretch” 24 frames into 60 frames per second whilst retaining the “filmic” motion.

JS

[Bram Desmet]

Yep, absolutely correct. Add to that the fact that BluRay 1080p format support is limited to 24p on most (if not all-I believe a limit of the BluRay encoding spec, might have been updated at some point, not really sure) players so this isn’t really the realm you’d find native 1080p60 content in. As a production/cinematography standard 24 frames is of course the prevailing standard so you probably should not concern yourself to much with the in/outs of 1080p60. However, on the broadcast level you do see a good deal of acquisition and archiving, especially of sports, starting to be very focused on 1080p60…but that isn’t what you’re doing.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com

[Jason Brown]

I don’t know if any of you guys use After Effects or not…but I was looking at that for the 720 composition setting and the 720 option is defaulted at 29.97fps. I was expecting it to be 59.94. I can change it…but from the discussion we had, I was expecting 59.94 to be the default.

Thoughts?

-Jason

[John Sharaf]

Jason,

Remember 29.97fps = 59.94 fields per second.

JS

[Jason Brown]

Yes…I got that.

But from the discussion we’ve been having 720p is NOT interlaced. And runs at 60 (59.94) progressive frames per second.

If that is the case, then the preset for 720p in AE should be a frame rate of 59.94.

Correct?

[Joey Burnham]

[Jason Brown] “If that is the case, then the preset for 720p in AE should be a frame rate of 59.94.”

Where do you see a preset for 720p? I’m looking through the presets now and none of them are listed as p or i. Are you in CS4?

Joey