Have you ever noticed that audio levels aren’t consistent outputting to Beta?

[Andre Gagnon]

[Ron Moody] ” Have you ever noticed that audio levels aren’t consistent outputting to Beta?”

I am not familiar with devices like yours but I know that DV Sound once transfered to analog is typically up to 10 db hotter. What you report appears normal and your solution is of course OK.

Aloha,

Andre

[Jan Janowski]

I think I can give you insight as to what is going on….
But I need to know how you are capturing….

I’m going to assume you are using a Transverter… You’ll need to know the specs of your transverter… and is transverter using balanced or un-balanced inputs? Let’s assume un-balanced inputs on transverter and VTR.
(If you are using balanced, the same applies, just different conversion specs.).
If your specs of transverter are -10 to -20 digital (Consumer to ‘broadcast’)
then you next need to find out what your 1800 deck is set to output when at ‘0’. Memory serves me that it can be set for either -10db, 0db, or +4db via a swtich on the board.

Let’s assume you have output set for -10 at deck, and have no mixer, and feed that directly into transverter, (Which converts -10db analog to -20db digital). PPRO wants to see -12db digital, so your audio is 8db LOWER than PPRO Tone.. You measure 7db…. That’s pretty close to 8db!!!
If this is what you encounter…

Here’s how I initially ‘got around’ it.

I took the deck output to an adjustable amp, and adjusted the output of this amp for 8db hotter output than the input. Fed this to the transverter, and the math then becomes: -10+ (+8)== -2db to the transverter -2db==-12db on the digital stream (8db hotter than -20). PPRO wants to see -12, so you are now ‘unity’ with PPRO.

Whereas this worked good with one vtr, it wasn’t very flexible.
So, I then changed it the following way….

Got a Mixer (Behringer) and verified that tone, when output at ‘0’ according to the mixer output, output at +4db on Balanced output of Mixer. Took the Amp (which could do balanced or unbalanced audio) and set it to input balanced, output un-balanced, and when tone at ‘0’ on Mixer to output +4 Balanced, and set amp to ouput -2db Un-balanced, which, when converted by the transverter, output -12 digital on DV stream, exactly what PPRO wants to see!!!

This gave me the flexibility of using the mixer to control/adjust whatever I plug into the mixer, and watch the LED’s on the mixer, knowing that the proper DV stream for PPRO will be based upon the mixer’s LED readouts… while still giving me the balanced output of the mixer at +4 for ‘other’ feeds.

Yes it involves other hardware, but it does provide accurate control of audio.

Jan

Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle

[Jan Janowski]

The above covers inputting audio into PPRO…

At that point, the captured audio matches PPRO’s Tone.

When you then output the session, you can then playback tone from PPRO
and set the record level on your VTR, and PPRO’s tone and your program are then at same level…

Jan

Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle

[Alejandro Maldonado]

I have the same happening to me in my UVW1800, -7db and everything is perfect (using a Decklink HD Extreme). I just save a project that has the bars already leveled down and it works great. All other audios are at perfect 0db peaks, so I think it is a problem with the premiere bars being higher than 0db. The mixer workaround is useful though.

[Jan Janowski]

0db is a nebulous level…

0db on meters may not be 0db at the output…
For example…
Broadcast Analog 0db can be 0db, +4db, +8db, and back in the 80’s I remember getting a +10db feed from a Canadian station, and is based upon balanced audio.
The level “0db” is can vary from plant to plant, and therefore 0db in Analog isn’t etched in stone, though the concencious is +4db for broadcast.

Consumer analog can be -10db, -4db or 0db. This us usually un-balanced audio.

Digital is altogether different. 0db for Post and Broadcast can be either -20db or -18db, with 0 being the point that cannot be exceeded (“FF” if you will). Digital at -20 means 20db before clipping (“FF”).

PPRO and FCP are set for -12db digital, which is the DVD ‘standard’.

Going from analog to digital in broadcast is one set of levels, but to PPRO or FCP is an altogether different set of levels…

The idea I use allows for using known good mixers with a conversion to what will work with a transverter for PPRO.

An exciting time will be had by all…

Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle

[Jan Janowski]

Forgot to mention something…

Not all mixers have same output levels….
For example, tone a “0db” on meters on a Mackie board (Audio or digital I’ve found) do not necessairly mean +4db (analog) or -20 or -18db (digital).
Fixing analog board necessitated DA’s with adjustments, and was the basis for my ‘fix’ for PPRO audio levels.

On a Digital board, where 0db doesn’t match either -18db or -20db (whichever house broadcast standard you need) I just taped over the meters, and added an external Metering system on AES output.. Not an elegant fix, but there it is!!!!

Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle

[Ron Moody]

Unless I missed something, no-one has yet addressed the real issue (at least in the way I see it.)

Once the audio goes into Premiere, it’s digital. Tone, program audio, whatever; it’s all digital.

So then, why is the tone presented by Premiere at 7 (or 8) dB higher than program audio.

And even more important, why, when you zero the meters inside of Premiere, does tone come out 7 or 8 dB HOTTER than program?

I understand about mixers and -10 / +4db. But that doesn’t address the issue above.

I still don’t get it.

RM

[Jan Janowski]

Because your captured audio is 7-8db low! You are probably using a transverter that is set for
“Broadcast” specs which is -20… PPRO uses -12 (8db higher).

Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle

[Ron Moody]

I hear you, but I still don’t understand.

Premiere Pro’s meters say that BOTH tone AND program material are at zero dB. As such, you would think that it would output BOTH at the same level. But that is not the case. Tone outputs at 7 or 8 dB hotter, but only on the Bets’s meters, PPro says everything is at zero.

That’s what I don’t understand. If you are banging your head against the keyboard now, saying “He just doesn’t get it!” You’re right. I don’t get it yet.

rm

[Jan Janowski]

My appologies I was under impression that audio was 7-8 lower than tone Within PPRO… (As it was here, until I made changes outlined above). That would point to wrong audio levels being captured.

Just to confirm
On PPRO Meters tone & program looks good?… But EE into beta tone is 7-8 Higher than program?
Can you confirm that both EE and playback of a recording both have tone 7-8 higher?

Can you beg, borrow, or steal a set of Peak & Vu meters to examing the audio going to the deck? This will confirm audio leaving PPRO/Transverter prior to the deck, and point you in one direction or another.
I happen to have a McCurdy test set here, and tone and program match on playback from transverter on PPRO Playback into the test gear before it hits the VTR. I do not have an 1800 to compare against.

If it points at VTR, then check these..
I’ve forgotten if 1800 had a Dolby switch.. Or an audio AGC swtich… if it does, turn it off and try again.
Are you going into deck with record level in unity, or is record level in manual, and cranked a lot?
Lastly, if the 1800 has physical VU Meters, or LEDs? I believe in the BVW75’s you had a switch to have the meter displays act like VU or Peak displays…. (I think default was Peak) If it is switchable, see if that PPRO’s meters are most probably Peak reading meters.

Hope this helps!

Looking for 1939 Indian Motocycle