Grinner vs. Avid

[Ted Levy]

And to bolster my argument, here’s a recent post by Grinner (from April 10th, Re: Modal editing) about Avid that I find typically distasteful:

“I’m wondering what the code wroters (sic) on staff actually do each day. I’ve not seen much in 15 years. Biggest development that has come out of Avid in a decade was purchased by them, not written by them.”

Here’s another of his recent comments (April 3rd, Re: Graphics, Resolution, Pixel Aspect Ratio):

“Do a video mixdown of your entire sequence then export it.
I know. what a bummer.”

This contribution was typical Grinner (April 1st, Re: Database errors/Media tool won’t read clips):

“Since the meridien line went to this new improved ism, media tool is just flat out buggy…The solution for me will be to move on to FCP. I can’t afford all these bugs anymore.”

And there was this one (April 1st, Re: Troubles with export):

“I agree. It should. I think this is why so many copies of premiere, FCP and Vegas are selling.”

And one more (March 28th, Re: Export):

“You have to do a video mixdown before exporting it for DVD. Drag, I know but that’s the deal.”

These posts were all within the past three weeks! Grinner has no right to be hosting this forum, which is intended to support Avid users, rather than being used to bash the product. Please, just give it (and us) a break. If you want to move on to FCP, then by all means do it, and move on from this forum as well.

[Kevin Downer]

Well in a forum like this there is a need for AVID users answering questions more than asking them. He is certainly an experienced user willing to lend help frequently here. He is committing more time here than lurkers like myself care to.

I see Grinner’s as a reality check sometimes: An editor in the trenches who is not always going to sugarcoat his response about his perspective on the product.

He is never insulting to the asker of a question (which occurs on other forums frequently). He just feels the AVID editing system for the single-user base has not advanced much for the higher-end purchasers.

After viewing AVID’s offerings at this NAB, I have to agree. What happened!? As a Symph Nitris user, I await the sting of Apple Color come May with dread.

If you don’t agree, debate it I guess or ignore the occasional grumpiness. There are always salient points tucked away in any forum discussion between experienced users which everyone can benefit from.

Most of us have one eye on the offerings from other companies because it affects our livelihood or investment. Grinner just has two at times.

He is my litmus test of AVID’s progress and innovation. I hope he is happy again one day for all our sakes. 🙂

[Ted Levy]

Well, I guess I just love the Avid interface and don’t feel too much need for it to evolve beyond its current state. I really haven’t run into any editing situation that Avid or its compatible plugins can’t do quickly and easily for me. Regarding functions like DVD mastering which are not related to editing, I’m happy to have other professionals who specialize in that kind of work do it at their facilities. In the broadcast/cable world or that of feature docs, thankfully editing can be a fulltime creative specialization unto itself.

For those who like other flavors of editing software, I’m glad the options are there for them to enjoy.

[Bob Zelin]

Ted –
I work with AVID’s more than almost anyone else, and have been doing so since the original AVID system. Long before any of these user forums existed, I have constantly been attacking AVID, and many of thier policies. I welcome Grinner’s comments, as they are accurate. The Media Composer interface is teriffic, and the AVID Adrenaline hardware is very stable, but the world moves along, and AVID – especially now – needs to be pushed along with the progress in our industry. If your attitude is “look, this box works, I can make a show, and I don’t want to spend any more money, so just leave well enough alone” – you sir, will be out of business very soon. Progress is what drives our industry, and striving for new exciting features, and higher resolutions, is what seperates us from “little Billy”, the high school editor.

Bob Zelin

[Marc Fisher]

Ted,

I’d have to agree with Bob, in that, Yes, avid has a great Product, or maybe a few. But the simple fact is, their development has really gone in a direction that doesn’t concern/affect most post-production editors(like what they built the biz off of). Avid is more concerned about server side things and TV broadcast stations than anything. and it shows.

The problem is not that people like Bob and Grinner dislike the MC or other avid products, it’s just that the development of new tools, and faster ways to do things, has come to a snails crawl. While other products like FCP or Premiere or Smoke continue to advance and push the envelope to what we as editors can do. Just be glad you’re not a DS user. Now there’s one that has been swept under the rug.

And are Grinner’s comments really that bad? when’s the last time you were on the L2?

And what ever happened to Elastic Reality.. boy that was a great app…

Marc

[Cathy G’nator]

Hey guys,

I think that we’re talking about two very different kinds of editors here. I understand the frustrations that grinner and others express about techie stuff, because they are responsible for every aspect of the picture editing process: all the fx and outputs and graphics. If they say that AVID isn’t keeping up, then I believe them. I suspect that Ted is an editor more like myself. I work on long form shows–lots of one off documentaries and the occasional drama, reality or doc series.

I am responsible for off-line picture editing: I work with the director and/or producer to create a story and put the pictures together to tell that story in the best possible way. I might throw in a few simple fx–motion, transitions, resizes, and some rough titles, BUT I expect an on-line editor who is far more technically minded to do all the other stuff. Or a graphics artist. I have technically expert assitant editors who do all the mixing, outputting, and other stuff for me. It’s not that I’m too good to do all this other stuff, it’s that I’m not good enough at it and I’m REALLY good at the story-telling stuff. And for that AVID just the way it is works just fine. I’ve got an AVID Xpress Pro with Mojo at home and it does the job I want it to do. I was on a series recently where I worked with FCP and I was not a happy camper. After a while I figured out some work-arounds so that I could work more quickly with it, but there was no comparison with the AVID. Some people say that it’s just that I’m used to AVID. I think it’s also because I come out of film and the AVID interface was really designed with us old fogey film editors in mind.

In any case, I don’t think off-line editors like Ted and I are about to go out of business if we don’t get the latest software because we don’t need it for the type of editing we do. However, on-line editors and complete package editors have genuine beefs and it’s good to have a forum in which to air them and perhaps figure out some solutions.

See what happens when I have a few minutes to spare to join in on the rant?!!! 🙂

[Ted Levy]

Thanks Cathy, you really have me figured out. And just like yourself, my greatest strength is that I’m a really good storyteller. It’s all that I really care about in this business, anyway, and all that most of the people I interview with or work with care about. As Altman said, if film ended tomorrow, I’d just start working on the stage…..anything to be able to dramatize the human condition.

Ted
Los Angeles

[Bob Zelin]

Ted – you are fortunate enough to be in this position. I came into this business, when the film editors actually edited with film, on KEM’s Steenbecks, etc. They were real editors, with all the awards, and all the “kids” were doing video. Well, now the film editors all didn’t work anymore (with the exception of a rare few), and the video guys took over. Then the AVID happened – same example. AVID sucked, video ruled, CMX ruled. AVID took over. Now FCP is “this weeks”buzz word.

Even with AVID and FCP, editors said “hey, I am not a graphics guy, I am not an audio guy, I don’t do After Effects, I don’t do color correction – I am an EDITOR”. The “kids”that did it all, got all the work. And it’s getting deeper. Today, you have to know how to get your edits up on the web – so you have to know encoding. You have to know how to make a quick DVD for your client. THIS IS A LOT OF KNOWLEGE, and you need powerful gear to be able to do video editing, graphics, audio, DVD, and web encoding – AT ALL RESOLUTIONS including all the fancy HD stuff with multiple frame rates happening. And you know what – KIDS KNOW THIS STUFF, and older (and I am older) guys DONT KNOW THIS STUFF. So when you say “I am an editor, I create” – young editors, that can do everything else, will put you out of business 5 years from now, becuase they will learn your skills – just like you learned your skills – but they learned everything else.

Sorry, but this is the reality. I don’t know networking, I don’t know SAN’s very well. People think I am a big shot, but I see what I am severely lacking in knowlege, where younger techs put me to shame. I still do what I do very well, but if I don’t keep up, my days are numbered too.

Bob Zelin

[Cathy G’nator]

The kids do know all the new technical stuff, but they don’t seem to know much about story-telling. At least the ones I’ve run into with a couple of sterling exceptions. And they don’t seem to be all that interested in learning about story-telling because they’re so bedazzled by all the new bells and whistles introduced on what seems like an hourly basis.

I recently came off a series in which I was the “elder” editor and the producer was clearly a little worried that I wouldn’t be able to keep up on the technical end of things. My co-editor was a technical whiz–not a “kid” but considerably younger than I. He helped me enormously in handling the technical stuff and became the go-to guy for any sequences that needed fancy pants fx done. However, I was able to edit the shows about 50% faster than he could and with much less input from the producer. Techie guys, kids or not, are pretty easy to find in this world. Editors who can look at many hours of footage and put a cohesive and dramatic story together out of it are not. I hear this all the time from those who hire me.

I don’t think that knowing how to put a long form story together is necessarily a set of skills that can be learned in the same way that one can learn a piece of software. There’s some talent involved and a lot of experience from watching other stories and READING literature. At the risk of sounding like a complete fuddy duddy, I’m afraid to say that the kids just ain’t reading anymore. Playing video games trains great fighter pilots but lousy story-tellers.

I just don’t think that editors like Ted and I will be out of a job anytime soon. Unless a new crop of technically savvy AND literate kids take over. Then we’re SOL. 🙂

[Grinner Hester]

I’m sorry some of you see my posts as Avid bashing sometimes. I just call em how I see em. I can’t tell you how many “Avid freakin’ rocks!” posts I have made in my day. Thats back when they rocked though. The way I see it, they could easily just do a good job. They either elect not to or have become too poor at their gig to. Either way, I myself have felt the burn and so have many other loyal Avid fans. I answer questions and sometimes ask them here. I throw in my two cents worth of opnions becaise this is a discussion forum. I always state facts with my opinions so people know why I’m saying it before they ask. This is not a Grinner vs Avid thing. It’s simply an Avid giving up thing.