FSI – trustworthy or not? Maybe plasma better?

[Steve Shaw]

Yes, that is an example of the inaccurate calibration we have seen.

Profiling with LightSpace showed ‘red’ to be off-axis, and under gamut.

What would be really good, would be for the LUTs generated via LightSpace to be able to be directly loaded into the FSI displays, replacing the factory calibration.

Assuming the problem with the displays is as we found with Penta this would be a good solution for user calibration – and accurate (assuming the underlying display gamut was good enough).

Any FSI management reading this?
We would be happy to help.

Steve

[Mel Matsuoka]

[Steve Shaw] “For HDMI connections the eeColor LUT Box is good.”

Hi Steve,

Any updates regarding the use of the SpectraCal ColorBox version of the eeColor box with Lightspace CMS? I know you were having issues getting it working right before?

[Steve Shaw]

I think that with the instructions listed on the Light Illusion website eeColor page it is possible.

As far as we can tell Spectracal do not alter the box firmware, just re-badge it, so there should be no problem.

Steve

[Bram Desmet]

Hi Gustavo, if you switch to monitor wide gamut mode you will see that the unit is very capable of making a very saturated Red. It is not that the monitor cannot make these types of Red, it is that In our experience when properly calibrated with a CS2000, PR-735, PR-680, or 5nm spectral bandwidth PR-655 the Rec 709 primary is indeed orangey compared to many consumer / prosumer displays operating in somewhat wider than Rec 709 color gamuts. Also, note that when we released the LM-2461W we transitioned to 2nm, 4nm, and 5nm spectral bandwidth reference spectroradiometers. We had previously been using only 8m spectral bandwidth spectroradiometers. This is the reason there was a change between 2460W default setup and 2461W default setup. The 2461W is more accurate and as you correctly note and most 2461W owners can attest to this provides a very good perceptual and objective match to high-end digital projectors working in the same color space. We made this all very public at the release of the 2461W and any 2460W can be updated and re-calibrated with the higher end reference instruments to match the 2461W.

Please note that all FSI monitors offer a wide variety of manual toggles for customers that want to make small adjustments (for example if they have their own preferred reference instrument) and we even offer the ability to essentially put the monitor in a ‘blank slate’ mode with essentially all of our color management turned off. This allows customers that don’t want to use our own calibration the ability to use external color management solutions/boxes without having to ‘compete’ with our built in systems. A very tiny percentage of customers go this route and those that do seem to find that sufficient as far as playing well with third party color management solutions. I would only caution that we regularly test just about every probe we can get our hands on and if you elect to use calibration other than what is built in we strongly recommend using at least 5nm spectral bandwidth spectroradiometers. We find significant deviations when going to 8nm and especially 10nm spectral bandwidth spectroradiometers. If we felt we could use a $1,000 probe to calibrate our units we certainly would, we don’t invest in the significantly more expensive probes because it is fun, it is just what we find is necessary to get good results.

Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com

[Robert Ruffo]

So in potential defense of FSI – were the models you tested Steve, this year’s 2461?

But… It also seems to me that ABL is a far less serious sin than incorrect reds, if I had to choose, in terms of how it might misguide a colorist. Things like image brightness are a place where at least I tend more to look at scopes than the image – but color rendition is when I am always just looking at the image, with the scopes only an afterthought.

If the ABL only comes on after all the image processing on the plasma panels – so a 3D LUTs that says a 70% bright green needs to be 10% less saturated, for example are still working as expected, even though later in the chain that 70% bright green is auto-dimmed to 50% – then we can still use 3D luts to correct panels in a box or inside DaVinci – color will be correct, and only brightness curves will be affected. (We only need to use small squares for calibration – say 30% of panel size or less)

If not then the 3D luts cannot be accurate with a plasma. Also, if not, then maybe even the internal calibration settings of the panel cannot ever be made to be correct – and would be to some degree meaningless (in terms of color, the brightness tapering off for very bright scenes I can see as not too much of a problem.

Then I have another question – Steve, with $5000 or less for a new monitor, what would you recommend, assuming a user is also empowered by your software and a reasonable probe?

[Steve Shaw]

We have calibrated many models – recent and older – and of varying screen sizes. Our customers have also calibrated many FSI displays and have reported the same/similar results.

Unfortunately ABL can be a bigger problem than a fixed colour error… the problem is you can’t trust the detail you are seeing – especially in the highlights, as well as totally variable color.

As ABL is variable it can not be easily countered for, and no, a 3D LUT cannot calibrate a plasma totally accurately due to ABL – no calibration can, including internal, 1D, etc!

The ABL causes very, very poor and variable RGB Separation, and that is key to any accurate calibration, by any method.

As for monitor recommendation – the best you can get that shows the ability to calibrate well.

I would go for a display that has no internal calibration, except the basics, and has a ‘natural mode’ that just shows the panel’s native colour, and use an external LUT box.

[Robert Ruffo]

Thank you Steve! But have you ever seen particular models under 5K that meet this requirement in your highly numerous travels and experiments?

Also, are you saying that even plasmas like the Bt300, that claim to have a “monitor mode’ that skips ABL still have ABL?

If I am understanding correctly, if I have a 3D lut for a plasma that says “when you see a Red color of 80% brightness, shift it 3% to green (or whatever) that 3D lut would be completely thrown off by ABL, so say an 80% brightness red that fills the screen would be considered, by the LUT, to instead be a 60% Red (or whatever the ABL shifts it down to?) and thus not shifted to green, as it “should”.

That would basically mean that you cannot use 3D luts with a plasma at all as they would be utterly disjointed from the panel’s true nature. The minute a patch size changed or content represented more or less total brightness than the patch size used to make the LUT, it would render the LUT calibration 100% useless, maybe even counter-productive. Hopefully I am missing something here!

That would also mean that the very many high end suites that correct plasmas with 3D luts have been looking at wrong color all this time – which would be a bit shocking for the people who paid $500 an hour for said suites. Is this actually true?

The BT300 plasmas, apparently can be calibrated to almost perfect Rec709, as reported by independent reviews which covered gamut accuracy as well. Is this calibration false for reasons I am failing to understand? Would it suddenly be shown to be off off if say the patch sizes used by the reviewer were different?

Sorry, a lot of questions, I know, but this is all quite shocking to me, and I’m sure quite a few other son this forum (and hopefully I am overestimating the problems above)

[Steve Shaw]

Can’t really recommend any displays at that price point, as we focus on the higher-end… But, as I say, most ‘screens’ in all displays come from a very few manufacturers – find a good IPS screen and then see who uses it.

As I say, ABL causes calibration issues due to poor RGB Separation.
There is no way around that with any calibration technique!

The so called correct Rec709 calibration is with a fixed set of test patterns – change the test patterns / patch size and the results will change. So when using real images the calibration will not be accurate.

But, having good 3D LUT calibration (as good as it can be) is better than the alternatives, if the profiling is done correctly. And this means calculating the ideal patch size for that particular displays the amount of ABL it suffers from. Good luck with that!

And the BT300 plasmas do indeed still suffer ABL – all the ‘Monitor’ mode does is reduce the screen output (brightness) to a point where it is less obvious. They also suffer a real ‘smear’ effect on motion.

Steve

[Robert Ruffo]

Thanks Steve!

I will measure inaccuracy based on varying patch sizes and report back here. To keep it simple, I will use Calman (not as powerful as your software, for sure, but just to get simple delta-E reports easy to post here). If the problems are subtle, then maybe we can live with them.

[Robert Ruffo]

FSI: Please respond to this thread re: Red gamut issue described by Steve Shaw and others, and casually observed by me, but I wasn’t sure (disclosure – why I started this doubt thread was that one reason.)

I will be blunt and say: I was going to buy an FSI 2461, and now I have decided that it is a poor idea, due only to this issue.

Projectors running in P3 space (or optimized for P3 space) are not a fair nor good reference to Rec 709 space. I often hear often how projectors are a good match – but when working in Rec 709 CRTs and Dolby monitors are the reference – and when these are compared – the Red issue comes up.

Put the 4061 next to a Dolby – the Reds are indeed orangy.

I am thinking instead of buying a Dreamcolor, keeping it is “full” gamut”, and taming it with a 3D LUt from Lightspace fed through a LUT box. Total cost of this with Lightspace and a probe is much higher than a 2461, not to mention way more work and fuss on my end, but unless I hear from you guys that the red issue is being looked at seriously – I can’t feel good about an FSI investment.

(Steve, would a Dreamcolor in Full mode (CMS bi-passed by sending a 10bit YUV HDMI signal) and a LUT box work well? Are 3D-Lut tamed Dreamcolor panels acceptable?

I need to see the color red properly, especially since we do a lot of work related to cosmetics here.

Steve Shaw works at the highest of high ends of this business – his clients include legends and household names who swear by him and his assessments – teh head of THX standards will coem out and say “you can trust Steve Shaw and Lighspace CMS” –

If Steve Shaw says FSI red gamut is off – then as far as I am concerned – it is off and there is some issue – with the panel, the backlight or the way you are interpreting probe data – I don’t know where, but somewhere. Maybe this issue is not present in 8 bit – not sure.

EIther this can be fixed by a software update that you are examining – in which case I will buy one now and wait for it to get better – or there is a hardware problem not covered by warranty – in which case I will get the Dreamcolor.

Oddly, it would seem that the lower end models you offer are MORE accurate for Rec 709. (?) as they are “redder”.

So my question to the very obviously well-meaning and honorable FSI guys is: are you looking into the red gamut issue, or not?

Anyway, in the old days, you bought a calibrated Sony CRT and you were done. This was before my time, but i’m sure many here miss the simplicity and assuredness of those days.