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FRUSTRATED!!!! Any Real-Time render solution for Chroma Key in FCP 4.5? Is Avid/Mojo better?
We produce a one-hour show which airs on TV three times a week. Two of the segments which we air every week are 20 minutes in length and are chroma-keyed. Here is our problem: we have been missing our deadline almost every time we have the chroma key segments because our 2.5gz G5 takes roughly an hour and a half just to render a 20-min segment during Print To Video. It was the lack of hardware render acceleration options on FCP which made us go initially with the Avid Xpress Pro solution with Mojo, which claims to be fully real-time with no “Print to video” rendering. For various reasons we would like to keep our show to be edited on FCP. At another studio, I use the PC-based Edius NLE with its render card which has a chroma-key filter that is unbelievably accurate and easy, and it is true REALTIME (just drop filter on clip, and when outputting to tape, just hit “Record” on deck and play from the timeline).
We have a Decklink HD card which adds some more RT effects but does not speed up rendering (our wishful thinking). Is there ANY solution which you experts can recommend which will allow us to do the chroma-keying (or everything else in FCP) to be in realtime and no rendering?
-shah
Editor: Bangla Bhubon Productions -
14 Replies
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Motion 2 has PrimatteRT, the famous keyer with GPU hardware execration. It will to cromakey in virtually real time even with a particle effect, and lower thirds on my system. Dual 2.7, 4GB ram, ATI 9650. I swapped out the 9650 card for a ATI X800XT and now run cromakey out of my kona 2 card right into master control and a SFbay news station for teasers, tags and tosses. Also I am using the PrimatteRT on my hour long HD documentary, with better that AE results, all in real time with the client present. Also with the FCP5 integration motion 2 works your normal workflow. This is a no BS solution to your problem. Mojo has NO hardware acceleration, and will not work better than FCP 5 and motion 2.
VM
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Also the keys are all CC’d in realtime too in motion.
VM
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OK some questions are in order here:
Will Motion do a chromakey and CC on a 20 minute clip in RT? Out of Motion, or actually using the motion clip inside FCP to edit to tape? in RT?
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[Shah] “We have a Decklink HD card which adds some more RT effects but does not speed up rendering (our wishful thinking). Is there ANY solution which you experts can recommend which will allow us to do the chroma-keying (or everything else in FCP) to be in realtime and no rendering?”
CineWave is the only product with Realtime Chroma Key in FCP. The product is about to die, but it uses the Primatte keyer and is incredibly clean. I have cut multiple shows with it in the past when I used to more green screen. As long as the drives are fast (SCSI or Fibre) Chroma key is no issue.
[Shah] “At another studio, I use the PC-based Edius NLE with its render card which has a chroma-key filter that is unbelievably accurate and easy, and it is true REALTIME (just drop filter on clip, and when outputting to tape, just hit “Record” on deck and play from the timeline).”
Why aren’t you using that system then? It’s pretty obvious from the FCP material that realtime chroma key is not supported natively. You’re blaming FCP for missing your deadlines in your post, yet you’re asking it to do something which is not supported. I think you got the wrong NLE for your project. So my advice is either switch to this Edius or add the CineWave card with the RT Pro option. Look for it on eBay.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Creative Genius, Biscardi Creative Media
https://www.biscardicreative.comNow in Production, “The Rough Cut,” https://www.theroughcutmovie.com
“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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[Shah] “our 2.5gz G5 takes roughly an hour and a half just to render a 20-min segment during Print To Video”
Why are you rendering during print to video? Why wouldn’t you render first, then print to video so your renders are saved? That is the proper way to do things. Rendering during print to video is just an automated process for those that have forgotten to render. Why it doesn’t save the render is beyond me, but it just caches it instead.
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The Digisuite (totally discontinued but available on ebay with Discreet Edit or Premiere) does excellent chroma keys in real time. I’ve used it for chroma key jobs for years.
– R
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Bret;
Actually, you touched on something that I need clarification on (maybe I should just open the 4.5 HD manual for this): what does it mean when you see “Writing Video” during Print to Video? Of course, if your material is not rendered to begin with, it will need to be rendered then. However, this has been my experience (anyone is welcome to comment on this): even after I spend the hour to render the segment the normal way (to view the edit), I still spend a long time during Print to Video. To save time, I skip the normal rendering during editing, figuring that I will have to render it again anyway during outputting — our usage time on our editing system is very limited.
So, Bret, you are saying that the rendering during Print to Video is different from the normal render beacause it renders it to Cache instead of to the disk. But isn’t it true that you are spending more time when you are rendering the normal way and rendering again(to cache) when outputting? Why just not render only to cache when outputting instead?
Thanks for your input!
-shah
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I will definitely look into the FCP 5 and Motion 2 upgrade. I suppose the PrimatteRT filter is included in the package. Thanks again for your advice.
-shah
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If you have fully rendered your timeline, there is absolutely NO NECESSITY to use “Print to Video” at all. The quality is identical if you just PLAY the timeline.
Make sure your audio playback is set to “High Quality” and perform an “Audio Mixdown” before you dub out.
Just hit record on the deck and play the timeline.
You can add the Color Bars, tone, slate and countdown right on the timeline.
You can even very closely hit a given TC on a tape, if you are just careful when you hit the “play” on FCP.I have never once used “Print to Video” in hundreds of broadcast projects from FCP.
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Thanks, Walter, for your input. I did some web searches and found your very informative article written in September 2003 on the Cinewave with FCP 3.
I guess the latest version of the Cinewave is 4.7. I see that I can get that from eBay for $3600. Here’s my question (I haven’t seen the spec list that carefully yet): we have the Decklink HD Pro card, but the Cinewave, in addition to its hardware acceleration, is also an HD capture card. Do you by any chance know of any significant differences between the capture/output feature set between the two? We can easily return the Decklink and invest in the Cinewave instead. Also, do you know if the Cinewave 4.7 is supported by 10.4 Tiger?
One more thing: any thoughts on the post earlier in this thread of the Motion 2 PrimatteRT chroma-key filter under FCP 5 which is supposed to be software-accelerated real time?
I know I am asking alot, but your advice is truly appreciated by all of us.
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