From a business point of view, can I justify the purchase of an Avid adrenaline instead of an FCP system? Discussion

[Mike Most — account bouncing, bad address]

Oops, I just reread your original post and see that your business is primarily shortform material. Ignore that part of my previous post. The rest still applies.

[Zman]

ok, havent read any of the other posts, but heres what happened to me. i had 4 avids then we needed 2 more total of 6 for a TV series. now not my choice for the avids, but we were 2 months into the show and all hell broke loose, not gonna even talk about it. but for the cost of those machines you think they would run. so being the genius I am, i went home and got my system, at the time it was a FCP4 w/dual 1 gig w/a scsi external array. ok now wanna talk about saving the day never mind the whole series, ok so by the end of the week the producers (there pretty famous) dumped all the avids, we had FCP 4.5 with X serves and Xraids in 2 days. now they delay was not a big deal cause we’re a sitcom and we were 2 shows ahead, so on the 4th show we were all FCP and now you cant believe how many shows saw our set up and are now using it. so here’s my advice, unless you are richer than Bill Gates and dont care about your future buy an avid adrenaline, if dont have his money and need to think about your career spend what you need and buy the FCP. we used the digital film tree guys for our setup, they are great.

[Samuel A. martin]

Thanks a lot guys, this seems to be a more interested community than the avid one where I’ve had no replies so far. I agree with MrVideo on the fact that for the price of 1 Adrenaline I can have 3 top of the range FCPs with all the bells and whistles. If I go to a facility and tell them I want 3 FCP suites with everything, I am sure they’ll work their arses to get me some discounted rates. Hell, even the company I buy equipment from started offering me incentives to get the deal through them the moment I mentioned to them my intentions….

I am based in the UK and it is interesting the way things are happening here. Over the last year FCP has gathered momentum and it seems to be growing. I read with a lot of interest that discreet smoke will be able to read FCP projects so if in a future I want to upgrade to discreet products I’ll be able to make a “smooth” transition (somehow discreet products have got in my mind as superior to them all, call it shitting your pants before mortgaging your life…).

I have read with a lot of interest what Mike Most has to say and he has brought up some very interesting points. If you read this Mike, would you say that all the points you mentioned before justify a $30000/40000 (depending on trade-in offers) price difference between them? I mean, and excuse my answer; it is a lot of money, a lot. Imagine if I want three Avids (that’s my intention, 3 suites), I’ll be looking at over $100000 in price difference between them, and I am talking about a basic Avid against a top of the range FCP. Technology is probably the fastest changing environment these days and FCP integration and networking will only get better, won’t it? Will the $100000 that I save by not going Avid serve me in the near future to keep up with the latest and the best from apple?

I am not lying to you when I tell you I am sleepless thinking about the right move. Just to think about the massive cost difference between them theoretically would make the decision easy, but not really. If it was just a few grand, even $10000/15000 I would be fine, I’d take it and get on with it. We are talking $40000….. On the other hand, the fact that I pay that huge idfference should guarantee a more rock solid equipment…. But I have used both an Adrenaline’s earlier version were really buggy and very unstable. The one thing I like about Avid is that real time effects are really real time and don’t need to render. Is this not the same with FCP? I mean, rendering times do justify paying extra, no doubt about it, but in this case?

[Mark Raudonis]

[Mike Most] “the Avid Unity system is complete, established and proven, whereas any SAN solutions for Final Cut have, at least to this point, been provided by third parties not necessarily dedicated specifically to video work. That’s not to say they don’t work, but you will likely need to be much more involved in the design and implementation, as opposed to Avid’s essentially off the shelf solution.
“

Mr. Most, your information is way out of date! Click on the Apple site and search for X-SAN.

We now have close to one hundred (Yes, one hundred!) FCP systems all networked, sharing common storage (over 45 terrabytes) using Apple’s X-san/X-raid combination. While this set up is not for amateurs, it’s no more complicated or elaborate than a Unity set up. I know, ’cause we just threw the Unity out the door!

As a company we were at this decision point (Avid vs FCP) over a year ago. We happily chose FCP for many of the reasons covered above. Here’s one thing to keep in mind. Everyone talks about saving money, but no one has mentioned “added capacity”. Sure, we’re as interested in saving money as the next person, but what if you took some of that savings and bought three FCP systems instead of one adrenaline? What if you trippled your storage compared to what a Unity could provide at a similar cost. You now have a competive edge over that “heavy iron” post house down the street. You now have a different workflow where more people can work on the media. You now have something that Avid can NOT provide at a reasonable cost… a fully networked company where every creative person in the company can access everything from work in progress to original media right at their desktops.

mark

[Nick B]

Its a good topic, the business plan is very important it is no good buying an expensive Avid and going bust !

I to am UK based and have certainly detected a rise in interest in FCP in the UK, i looked at buying an Adrenaline but i am MAC based and Adrenaline is not 100% effective on that platform , High def is another problem with Avid they charge too much for the HD board.

I paid for my FCP uncompressed HD set up in about 5 weeks so there is no ‘business risk’ this to me was perhaps the most important thing.
With ‘expensive kit’ you could find yourself working for the bank and not your own pocket.

However as peter wiggens says the price of FCP is so low you might have difficulty renting it out, i was asked for a quote for 12 weeks system rental (although i am not realy in the rental business) and i quoted

[Nick B]

Anyone think the days of charging money for the edit kit could be coming to an end ?

As long as i get a proper edit rate for myself i could easily afford to include my system (x VTR) for free !

[John Davidson]

Hi,

I’m in the same boat as you are right now. Currently I offlne on Xpress/SDConnect at home and online in a symphony at a post house nearby. There are alot of chest beaters out there for both systems, but what really matters to you is the $. So, let me answer your question as a potential client and then as a business owner.

1. As a client, I, and none of the other producers at Disney, ABC Family, TNT, FX, CNN, and any other network I have worked for have used Final Cut Pro, much less paid session time for it. I do know one guy in Atlanta who swears by it, but that’s primarily because his budgets are locked and he’s working from a “how can I save cash” standpoint. So, if you’re looking to rent out a FCP system at Avid rates, you’d better have a stellar editor with his own clients to attract attention to the room. Otherwise, it’s just another place with FCP.

2. As a business owner, FCP makes perfect sense. Many, and I mean MANY high end production companies have already moved over to FCP. Wanna see something cut with FCP? Go to a movie, check out the trailers. At least half are done by FCP nowadays. Your business setup and how you attract clients is the main factor. If you are the production company hired out to produce, create, and finish the product, then go FCP. You’re goal is to get the completed project done, not entertain clients in a cushy avid suite. If you are a day-to-day rental facility with clients on the network, music video, or film level, you should go with Avid regardless of the cost. Most producers at that level stick with what they know works – Avid.

In the end, while a 20k difference looks big on paper, it’s just one project difference between them. The best bet is to listen to your clients and see what they want.

Worst case, Avid is a beautiful write-off.

[Peter Wiggins]

Nick,

Lets not even go there! Interesting though as one large London post house are hiring my kit for 3 weeks soon.

Shall we continue the rate discussion on the European board?

If you do offer your kit for free, bare in mind some of us own digibetas 🙂

Peter

https://www.peterwiggins.com

In Paris editing The French Open for ESPN

[Daniel Weber]

I have read all the posts on this topic. Very interesting and some good points made as well.

One thing that hasn’t been brought up is the exta work that can be brought in with 3 edit systems compared to 1.

Have you figured in the extra costs with having 3 systems to 1 though. Maybe you could get 2 FCP HD suites and put the extra money into decks (not that the cost of a FCP system is the same as the price of a good deck!!!!)

I was on the West coast until 3 years ago and FCP was becoming very popular then. Now I am on the east coast and it has been slower with high end houses accepting FCP over Avid. I just left a job where we had 3 Avids on a Unity and it was a nightmare!!!! The thing never worked properly!!!!!!! And they wanted $13K a year for free phone calls for tech support for a system that never worked right from day one. The VAR finally said that we needed to hire a full time IS guy to run the Unity!!!

That brings up another point not made. What will it cost you to train all your staff to go from Avid to FCP? I made the transition from FCP to Avid very quickly, but I have seen some Avid editors get freaked out by FCP. Though I have to admit that the best AVID editor that I know came and worked on my personal system at home and she freaked out when she saw what FCP could finally do!!!! She went out and bought a Powerbook and FCP just to learn how to use it!!!!

Final point to consider. Will you lose any clients by making the “switch”? If so will you gain more FCP editors to replace those lost.

Dan Weber

[Samuel A. martin]

To be frank with you I don’t care really that much about the editors (I am talking purely as a business man here and not as a colleague, so don’t get me wrong) and whether they like the fact I might go FCP or not. If someone doesn’t like it the door is opened for anyone. There are so many talented people out there that it won’t take long to find the right people. As a matter of fact I already have 2/3 very talented fellas that I know of that would be more than willing to come along. I use freelance editors rather than permanent, so the impact wouldn’t be that serious, I believe, and although I tend to use the same guys, I don’t have a permanent group of editors that my clients have got used to and expect to work with. Also, bear in mind the main bulk of my income at the moment comes from hiring equipment out. I have seen how the industry is changing and I am adapting to it. I want to offer a service were my clients can get post-production rates as part of their equipment hire quotes as well as developing a new business altogether.

The advantage/ disadvantage of all this, depending what angle you look at it is that I am not running an established post production service. That would make the decision even harder as i would have to consider the entire business structure and compatibility. The point I raised before and Daniel Webber mentioned as well is that I can do/offer a lot more with 2/3 suites that with just 1. Although I have 2 MC now, they are dated and can’t even do serious work without crashing. An adrenaline would have to be a complete new system from scratch. In have heard FCP 5 is really stable. Adrenaline earlier versions were very unstable (crap honestly) and although they are getting better they are still not there yet.

One more question though, how much would I have to pay over the next 3 years to keep up with Avid updates (hardware and software) compared to FCP? That could also be an important point to consider. I might be saving a lot of money from the start but I might be losing it in the long run by having to keep up with all the hardware and software updates. How quickly the FCP’s hardware will need to be replaced? And the Avid’s?

Thanks

Sam