From a business point of view, can I justify the purchase of an Avid adrenaline instead of an FCP system? Discussion

[Bob Woodhead]

Only things I could think of in favor of the Avid:
– it might be somewhat more stable/reliable (ONLY talking about the app, not the platform), especially in terms of media management (think of all the issues folks have with the MediaManagler in FCP trying to redigz seq’s with speed changes, nests, etc.). That being said, FCP5 is *supposed* to have addressed the MediaMangler problems. In an HD environment, with renewed emphasis on offline/online workflow, this could be a pain if MM isn’t fixed on FCP5. Also, being a turnkey NLE from one company (via VARs), with established support vendors (pro facility maintainance shops), makes serious issues perhaps more easily fixed.
– Adrenaline has a rez-independent timeline, at least DV/SD – I do NOT know if this extends to HD.
– Avid Unity. if you need it, there’s nothing comparable for FCP.
– having cut on everything from CMX to Quantel to Avid to FCP, give me FCP. (well, OK, give me a Quantel iQ/eQ if I don’t have to PAY for it!).

Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
Quantel-Avid-FCP-3D-Crayola
G5 DP 2G, 10.3.4, 3.5GB RAM, FCP 4.5, Aja IO, Huge 320R [raid3]

[Bryce Whiteside]

This question comes up weekly.

Search this forum with the key words–>Avid Adrenaline FCP

I got 49 hits.

HTH,
Bryce

Don’t worry Mr. B. I have a cunning plan…

PowerBook 1.67 Ghz ATI 9700 128 MB 2 GB
Final Cut Pro HD
DVD Studio Pro 3
Motion

[Tom Wolsky]

You might want to try this question on the Avid forum. I’d be curious to see your answers there. The answers here are probably pretty predictable.

[Samuel A. martin]

Yes, but I am not looking at people telling me what Avid does better than FCP, I am not interested on that. I am talking about business product and client awareness.

By going FCP, will my clients or potential clients think that I am a “B” company because I don’t have either Avid or discreet (the 2 daddies of high end stations) on offer?
Will I find more difficult to bring new clients by offering FCP instead of Avid/ discreet?
What’s the general perception of FCP as a high end system?
Will I be considered a low budget facility?
How many serious budget productions would consider doing post on FCP compared to Avid/ Discreet?

This are the kind of questions I am looking for an answer. I can get FCP editors that will do just as good work as Avid editors and vice versa. I am aware of all these things. I have used both systems and I know the weakness or strenths of each one (I am sure there are more than I don’t know).

I am looking for objective business orientated advice/previous experience. The kind I won’t get from a reseller or collegue using such or such platform.

Thanks

[Jerry Hofmann]

Then from a business point of view FCP blows the doors off an Avid system. If you are not going to use Unity there’s not a reason on earth that your rental business should be renting Avid instead of FCP.

Furthermore, I’ll put out another thought:
I’ll bet there are 10 FCP editors out there for every Avid editor. That means your customer base is much larger if you are renting FCP systems. Just makes sense doesn’t it?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: “Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4” Click here

Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D

[Scott Witthaus]

Samuel –

The shop I own is going throught the EXACT same discussion. We are a spot, music video, promo shop as well, so I know what you are talking about. I am an Avid editor from the time they hit the market in about 92, but have been cutting on FCP (and enjoying it) a lot recently. I also have an Xpress Meridien and a FCP 4.5 suite.

We just had our demo Adrenaline unit in for the last week for evaluation. The list price on the Adrenaline was over $50,000 US (street price is less). The MCA is a good machine, no doubt. But in the end, it is a very expensive Media Composer, limited in its feature sets, and does not integrate with other software nearly as well as FCP does. And its on a PC, which would be the only PC on my network. Again, its a good machine, but I saw it as overpriced and potentially limited in its advances (avid can’t take away Symphony sales by giving MCA too much).

So I went for a quote on a turnkey FCP5 Studio system, and for less than half the (street, not list) price, not only did I get a very solid system, but it also included storage, and a 23″ Cinema display. For my shop and workflow, the ROI on the FCP system seems much better! For the differences in prices, I can live with any shortcomings that FCP has compared to MCA, and there are many things that FCP5 does far better. In my market/workflow, I charge the same for Avid as I do FCP (it really is the editor, not the box, right?), so the ROI equation is a no brainer.

My 2 cents, hope that helps. Feel free to contact me off list at scott@greybox.cc

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
Greybox, LLC
Richmond, VA USA
http://www.greybox.cc

[Scott Witthaus]

[Samuel A. Martin] “end stations) on offer?
Will I find more difficult to bring new clients by offering FCP instead of Avid/ discreet?
What’s the general perception of FCP as a high end system?
Will I be considered a low budget facility?
How many serious budget productions would consider doing post on FCP compared to Avid/ Discreet?”

Samuel:

Offer the talent and the box is secondary.

In the spot world, FCP is readily accepted and equal in Avid in stature by clients (editors are a different story)

Discreet is a different animal. AE can do a lot, and getting better and faster, but I would never compare FCP to a smoke or flame. FCP and Discreet is a nice combo if you can swing it.

Low budget facility? Again, talent will decide who you are.

We are finishing regional and national spots straight out of FCP suite (AJA to Dbeta) all the time.

Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
Greybox, LLC
Richmond, VA USA
http://www.greybox.cc

[Peter Wiggins]

Samuel,

maybe I can put a different perspective on the situation as I am actually in the UK and we have a completely different market to the States. I’ve been using FCP for 3 years now and its only since FCP5 have people here really seen it as a viable alternative to Avid. Indeed, Avid is a verb now!

If you buy an Adrenaline, you won’t be short of hire/work over the next year or so. However after that I expect FCP to kick in big time and savvy clients are going to make the switch

If you buy FCP you might find it a bit of a slow start but as more and more people do HD & HDV then FCP will gain more share.

What you should be worried of though is how cheap everything is getting. Clients now are saying why should they hire when they can go out and buy the kit themselves. The industry is changing fast.
You also have to structure your hire price of FCP to make you money, but not seem like the client is paying over the odds for inexpensive kit.

look what happened in the DTP revolution – the same thing is happening in video.

If you are that unsure, hedge your bets and buy both!

Peter

https://www.peterwiggins.com

In Paris editing The French Open for ESPN

[Mrvideo]

[Samuel A. Martin] “ny business owners out there, or artists with important input in decision making”

It is a gut wrenching decision to go away from the established to a new horizon, but from a pure production wall clock that equals $$$$$; Final Cut Pro is a winner. As a business owner and an editor who has used AVID and FCP, the cost considerations are monumental, first and then the artistic considerations second.

In both instances Apple’s Final Cut Pro comes out on top every time. Clients don’t really care what tols you are using unless there are delivery issues. Video input issues or output deliveries are the only real hangups.

What customer care about is COST to complete. With the same amount of $$$ spent on one AVID system you could have a 3 bay FCP finishing house and LCD monitors and even a Fiber Channel RAID that hits all three.

In this world we all live in today it is about how fast can you deliver and in how many ways? Multiple platforms allow you to do one task on the first box and then go off to work on the second box. If you are doing compositing on one system, DVD authoring on a second or Log and Capture to a RAID box and editing/finishing on the third system, you have flexibility and if one system goes down, you are not dead.

Them more that editors use Final Cut Pro and adapt from the AVID constrictions, the more they seem to love it.

[Mike Most — account bouncing, bad address]

>>By going FCP, will my clients or potential clients think that I am a “B” company because I don’t have either Avid >>or discreet (the 2 daddies of high end stations) on offer?

Why not ask them, instead of people on a Final Cut Internet forum? I’m not saying that to be facetious, I’m saying it because you haven’t mentioned what type of business you primarily handle, or your location. These things are very significant in terms of client perception and the value of it.

>>Will I be considered a low budget facility?

Once again, on a Final Cut Internet forum, the only answer you should expect to get is “of course not.” Your reality may be different than that.

The questions I would ask you are:
1. What end of the business do you primarily cater to – commercials, music videos, corporate, network episodic, film editorial, or something else?
2. What do most of your clients (assuming you’re a finishing facility) cut on? And at what frame rates? If the answer is “Avid” and “24 frame” then an Adrenaline or DS has much to recommend it in terms of seamless movement of the timeline from offline to online. Even Automatic Duck, the primary software used for timeline translation, cannot handle 24 frame projects in either direction. The ability to read your clients timelines directly adds immensely to online efficiency vs. the EDL approach. Time is money.
3. Which brings up another point, which is rendering speed. Adrenaline (and Symphony, and DS) will reliably play many projects with little or no rendering at all, especially where color correction is required. That’s the whole point of the DNA boxes. Final Cut, regardless of the capture card, will ultimately require some degree of rendering for reliable, no-frames-dropped final output. Once again, time is money.
4. Do you plan to network multiple systems and use shared storage? If so, the Avid Unity system is complete, established and proven, whereas any SAN solutions for Final Cut have, at least to this point, been provided by third parties not necessarily dedicated specifically to video work. That’s not to say they don’t work, but you will likely need to be much more involved in the design and implementation, as opposed to Avid’s essentially off the shelf solution.
4. Do you do any sound work, and does that involve use of Pro Tools? If so, the connection between Avid products and Pro Tools (itself an Avid product) is more complete and seamless, almost by definition.

When you ask users of one system or another their opinions, especially on Internet forums devoted to those products, you rarely get an unbiased answer. You more likely than not get reasons for their own decisions, which are not necessarily valid for yours. Final Cut users in general see primarily the dollar signs involved in original system purchase, not the bigger picture of client perception, specific market needs, or particular requirements which sometimes make the original system purchase figure much less significant. You need to examine your own needs and act accordingly.