free edit work.. can I use in my demo reel?

[Glen Montgomery]

Use it, use it, use it. The whole point of working for free is to get the experience and example for you’re reel.

Editor / Motion Graphics Artist, Denver CO
https://coldpost.tv/

[Paolo Zuniga]

That’s what I though as well!

I guess I just want to make sure that even if I don’t have his final approval, I’m still in the right to use the edit work I’ve done for my personal reel.

Thanks!

[Juris Eksts]

Lots of different thoughts on this:
(I’m assuming that because you want material for a reel, that you’re just starting out on the career path, and that you want to be an editor)
First is that this will be a good lesson, – agree everything in writing before starting a project.
Second is that even if the job was a freebie, the material does belong to the director, so no, you have no rights to use that material. So he/she would have the right to sue you if you used it. But, if there was no budget to pay you, they may have no budget to hire a lawyer, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Thirdly, that the career of an editor is largely built on relationships, so maybe it’s not a good idea to start that career by getting on the wrong side of people. He/she may or may not have contacts in the world you’re trying to make your own contacts in, if not then it may not matter, but if he/she does, then you could find you have an uphill battle before you begin.
My tuppence worth.

[Alex Elkins]

I think you need to appeal to the better nature of this director and explain that the only reason you agreed to work for free was to have something for your reel. If he’s not happy with the result then that’s a shame, but he shouldn’t bar you from using your own work.

If he still has a problem then explain you’ll need to bill him for your time.

It seems like he’s concerned with the perceived fact that he thinks you having your ‘bad edit’ online could affect people’s reaction to his film. The only actual fact is that this guy needs to grow the hell up and stop pretending that his poxy little freebie short film will be seen by anyone other than his friends and family.

Alex Elkins
Twitter: @postbluetv
http://www.postblue.tv
Post Blue showreel
Latest work: Greyhounds in Motion at 500fps
My Vimeo Pro page

[Mark Suszko]

IANAL, but my impression of the legal situation is that this editor has no legal rights to the footage unless he has something in writing.

Consider it tuition in the school of life, and a mistake you’ve learned the hard way not to repeat.

[Todd Terry]

Yep… sorry, but you’re not in a good position for this one.

You have no rights to use the footage. Not only does the actual footage belong to someone else, but there may be other ancillary rights (performances, etc.) that you do not have rights to, either.

You also do not have the right to now, after the fact, asked to be paid for the job. You agreed to do the work as a freebie. That’s about the end of that road.

The best you can do is ask nicely for permission to use the project. Apparently you’ve already done that and they have said “no.”

You could have just gone ahead and used the footage, following the old axiom “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission” (I hate that phrase). But… you did ask permission, and were denied. Therefore the rights-owner has clearly defined his position on your usage of the footage.

At this point there is nothing you can do about it, except go ahead and use his project without his permission… which would most certainly set you up for legal action since he has already clearly forbade that… there’s no way to plead ignorance of his position on it. Will he actually do anything about it? Hard to say… but I know if I were in his shoes, I would.

Yes, just chalk this one up as a life lesson and move on to the next job. Keep this in perspective with the rest of life… we’re not talking about a huge gig and you weren’t cutting “Gone With the Wind,” you said it was only a two-day edit… so just move on. And when that next job comes, make sure you get in writing all the permissions you think you’ll need.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Steve Martin]

I concur with Mark & Todd.

Not having a clear understanding of what happens if (when!) s*it hits the fan is probably the single most source of questions on this forum. Not having that understanding in writing is a close second.

Consider this an important lesson and move on.

Best of luck to you!

Production is fun – but lets not forget: Nobody ever died on the video table!

[John Naughton]

Hi, I am new to the COW but have 17 years experience.

I was in this situation one time, long ago when I was editing for an independent producer. In that case, the producer was concerned about the footage being sold from under him as stock. Work and ideas get stolen all the time. If you put yourself in his shoes, I think you can see his hesitation.

Keeping the relationship is always most important. Smile and let it go.

John Naughton
Silver Edge Productions LLC

[Paolo Zuniga]

Thank you all for the feedback/insight! Very helpful.

Ultimately, using the footage isn’t a big deal for me. As an aspiring editor, I’ve got other material I’m working on that I can add to my portfolio, some paid, some free. It was more about the principle. The fact that I worked hard on it and when I asked if I could use the work I’ve done thus far, for FREE, he reacted in such a threatening manner.

So anyways, I very much agree that I should take it as a lesson and move on.

BUT.. do any of you have suggestions on how I can prevent this from happening again?? I know things will happen sometimes, but are there any tips I should keep in mind for future work?

thanks again!

[Scott Sheriff]

Todd and Mark are on the money here, and whoever marked the reply that said to “Use it, use it, use it.” as a ‘solution’ should rethink that. It is a recipe for disaster.
To post copy written work without permission is foolhardy, doubly so when permission has been expressly denied. Equally foolhardy is to advocate doing this in a public forum read by clients and peers.
You have no rights to use the material, and now the owner has voiced his opposition. While ignorance is a poor legal defense, you don’t even have that now. So to continue at this point would show a willful and deliberate act on your part. To use (post) this as others have suggested here opens you up to ‘take down’ actions and a civil lawsuit, which you would most likely end up settling, or lose if it went to trial. Even if you don’t have any money to lose now, judgements usually have a seven year time to collect. A judgement against you will cause financial difficulties for years and make it tough to get business insurance, show up in background checks for employment and make it difficult to get loans.
Maybe you could just continue on, and hope that the director doesn’t have the will, or resources to push the issue, but the best advice is to avoid this situation entirely.
Demanding compensation after the fact is another bad idea. We play in a pretty small sandbox, and things like that can make you look like a completely unprofessional amateur. If you don’t care about reputation, you could try a small claims court lawsuit, but after the fact claims like these almost never work and can open you up to a countersuit.
There are much better uses of your time, like trying to work out why the director didn’t like your cut, getting up to speed on contracts, looking for work, etc.
Do yourself a big favor and consider this a lesson learned and move on.

Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.com

“If you think it’s expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.” —Red Adair

Where were you on 6/21?