follow-up to Vegasvs FCP (wondering about QUALITY)

[Frank Black]

Thanks John.

[Frank Black]

Erik, when you say “run windows 100% natively”, does that mean I can switch between Windows or OS X just as easy as switching between applications? And are you familiar with Bootcamp? What is it, and how does it work?

Also, regarding the loss of quality when adding something like titles — am I understanding this right? When you add titles to a shot, does the shot lose quality? And are you saying that ProRes is designed to lose less?

Also, someone had mentioned ISP monitors? Can anyone elaborate on this? What makes a certain monitor better than another? Any example monitors to look at?

[Frank Black]

Lance, you hit all the right notes, but you leave me with many questions. First, thank you for your input. And second, can tell me more —

You say “just because you can throw a bunch of clips with various codecs on the timelime doesn’t mean you should! This is a bad idea in any NLE unless you have a specific reason for doing so!” Now — why? You explain how FCP works well with ProRes and Vegas likes XDCAM, but I still don’t understand why it’s a “bad idea” to take advantage of throwing various stuff on the timeline. Please let me know in as much detail as you can. Thanks

Also, what do you mean that Vegas 10 is “buggy and completely unusable in it’s current state as a pro tool due to radical instability.” What exactly have you experienced. Please do tell. And what do you think is causing this? Why is 9 different in regards to this?

Also, what do you mean that you can “be more precise….output easier and more accurately” with FCP? I can understand the “easier” part — I assume that has to do with the industry standard factor. But what do you mean by “precise” and “accurately?” These are exactly some of the things I’m trying to find out, regardless of whether for play or for pro work.

And why did you choose Vegas for your feature?

In the end you say that it all depends on whether I’ll be playing or working, but the details you give above seem to be ones that would have a difference for me regardless of whether I’m playing or working.

And finally, you mention, in regards to going with Vegas, that a dell or hp pro workstation would be best. Would it be better than building a well-researched PC off of TigerDirect.com? I remember reading that Robert Rodriguez, for his PC-based systems, also orders from Dell and rips out the unnecessary parts, and I wonder to myself — why doesn’t he just “build” a PC rather than order from Dell? What can you tell me about this?

Thanks a lot.

[Erik Lindahl]

What i mean with running Windows 100% native is that a Apple “Macintosh” is a 100% Intel-compatible machine. Through BootCamp you can launch Windows like any “Windows compatible” (i.e. Dell / HP). It’s not an emulation-mode or anything like that. What you also can do is run a “virtual machine” inside MacOSX if you want, given this isn’t optimal for high-end apps in the long run as you will have a performance hit and some limitation.

In terms of losing quality when adding titles or color correcting is the fact that any editing system HAS TO re-compress the image when you do any modification to an image. What I mean is, as you will in 90% of the time do this you want to edit in a high quality codec intended for editing. So, working in something like ProRes will result in less degradation of image quality than staying with h264 / AVC / MPEG2 / DV / HDV in your edit. In a lot of cases you won’t just work in one application either so in a “normal” post-workflow you want to move to a solid editing codec anyway. In FCP you’re somewhat forced to do this, as stated, for better and worse.

IPS-monitors are special type of TFT monitors that in general offer better spec’s that other TFT-panels. IPS is a technical term for the actual panel inside of the monitor. Apple uses these exclusively in their hardware, other manufactures like DELL offer certain series of monitors that have this also. 

[Lance Bachelder]

As far as clips on the timeline – if you know what you’re doing this is fine – but would rather render all my work into a common codec and framerate before I start working. Mixing interlaced and progressive files along with 24p and 29.97 files in various sizes and codecs can lead to slower performance while editing and a crappy looking finished product no matter what NLE you’re using if you don’t watch out.

Not sure yet why 10 is acting up – I have a feeling it’s the re-write of their video plug-in SDK but I’m not an engineer – I just know it crashes continually and randomly on my 2 very up-to-date workstations. All the video plug-ins are much more sluggish than they were in past versions. Once the bugs are worked out it’s going to be great – it has some killer features that could finally take to true pro level with FCP and Avid but the kinks have to be worked out.

As far as “precise blah blah”… if you’re doing a lot of capturing and output from/to various sources such as HDCAM and Digibeta decks etc FCP is going to be better than Vegas. The use of industry standard io cards such as the Kona or Decklink is perfected and proven with FCP – still a bit shaky with Vegas. Outputs need to be frame accurate and pass rigorous broadcaster QC and this is where FCP and Avid products shine.

And why did you choose Vegas for your feature? We shot with the Canon DSLR’s for most of the movie and after much testing on Mac and PC’s with various codecs etc found that syncing dailies in Vegas and rendering to XDCAM 422 yielded the best results – the DSLR world is changing all the time and there are now tools available that weren’t when we started editing – not sure this would still be the workflow we would choose if we were starting the process today. https://www.cutbackthemovie.com for temp trailer…

As far as work or play – if you’re just starting out and maybe doing web videos or whatever you may not even need either product – buy a new Mac and you get the new iMovie 11 which is very powerful – for free! And the 27″ Quad iMac is probably the best deal out there for someone starting in Media work and you can add FCP later if you want. Or pick up any PC and go get Vegas MovieStudio for under a 100 bucks – either product will get you started and let you produce good work – assuming it’s written and shot well to begin with. They’re just tools after all – once you learn to edit well – it won’t matter what you’re using as they all change and leapfrog each other with each new version.

As far as workstations go _ I’ve built dozens of them over the years including the 2 I have now. At my last studio gig we had all Dell and HP pro workstations – they’re expensive but guess what? They work! There’s reasons why Avid only certifies certain machines! And even Vegas runs better on a pro workstation! I’m done building PC’s – my next movie will be cut on either a high-end HP or MacPro workstation. These systems have been proven in the trenches in Hollywood and while no hardware is perfect – they’re faster and more stable than something you’d piece together yourself. But those HP’s – OUCH!!! Pricey…

Lance Bachelder
Southern California

[Frank Black]

Erik thanks a lot. So the only reason I would wanna use Windows on a Mac is if I like the Mac hardware, right? And so not to take a hit in performance, I would need to have only Windows and not two operating systems. And if I do want two, I would need to run one as “virtual,” thereby taking a hit, right? Did I understand you right in regards to both points?

And — in terms of losing quality — does the image get re-compressed 10 times if I try 10 different frame rate speeds before I decide on one? Are you saying that ANY change causes a re-compression, whether adding a title, changing the title, changing it back, etc?

[Frank Black]

Lance, but why are you done building PCs? And I know what you mean about HPs being pricey. I’ve been noticing Sony and HP pro computers costing as much as 6,000 when it seems to me that I could build a PC with the same specs for half that. Am I not noticing something?

And regarding the 27″ Mac — if you’re talking about the iMac — I’ve never seen a more beautiful piece of technology, wrapped with one sheet of aluminum, no screws in sight. The keyboard itself is a pleasure to look at. And they come in quad core now which not only handle iMovie but alsp FCP.

In regards to what you said about the codecs — I think this explains why FCP only wants everything in one or two codecs. Right?

And thanks for your help.

[Erik Lindahl]

Erik thanks a lot. So the only reason I would wanna use Windows on a Mac is if I like the Mac hardware, right?

Well you could buy a Mac and use Windows cause you like the hardware but the main reason is that you don’t lock your self to MacOSX when buying a Mac. You CAN run Windows as well. You can have both MacOSX and Windows on the same system with out any problems. For maximum performance you re-boot your system into Windows when using Windows and then re-boot into MacOSX when using MacOSX. Takes less than a minute to do.

And — in terms of losing quality — does the image get re-compressed 10 times if I try 10 different frame rate speeds before I decide on one?

Normally no, but if you for example:

Edit > Grade in an external program > Do effects in an external program > Re-connect to your original edit and add titles you’d end up with 3 generation losses (i.e. 3 re-encodes). It all depends on your work-flow. Just sitting in one editing app should never introduce more than 1 generation loss.

Are you saying that ANY change causes a re-compression, whether adding a title, changing the title, changing it back, etc?

Basically, if you have a clip and you add a color correction, then a title and then you render you end up with your original clip and a rendered version of the same clip. If you go back and remove the color correction and change the title your editor, be it FCP or Vegas, will render a new clip from the original. You won’t lose quality for each change you make.

If you however do as I described above you can run into issues. The same goes if you edit something, add FX / titles, lay out to tape or file then later re-import it, do some changes and again layout to tape or file – here you’ll most likely have one generation loss “per round trip” so to speak.

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Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se

[Erik Lindahl]

There are pro’s and con’s with every system or application you get. As mentioned, an “open” timeline and an “open” system is great but it also requires you to somewhat know what you’re doing. One can’t just disregard different standards and codecs just cause your application handles them all.

A classic for me is that the last 10 projects where we’ve needed to buy stock-footage it’s always been 24P or 30i – two NTSC formats. In Sweden we 99% of the time want PAL 25p or 25i, researchers just don’t get that and it can cause massive head-aches in the editing process. Would I be better off with using FCP, AVID or Vega’s here? Maybe AVID or Vega’s can do some “magic” internally in the app and convert 24P to 25P or 30i to 25p, I can’t really say how good it would look and personally I always do those kind of conversions per clip in what ever app does it the best in the arsenal of apps we’ve got in the studio (Episode, After Effects, Shake, Final Cut Pro, Compressor – the list goes on).

FCP is quite an “open” system and it’s got a ton of extra’s that’s come from the community. However, FCP is also growing more into a “spider in the web” of post production. Just look at the past years “Final Cut Pro User Group Super Meets” – these have changed their name to simply “Super Meets” as people and technology evolve and we don’t just use one app or one editing package to get things done always. I spend as much time in Color and After Effects as I do in FCP – but FCP is my choice of editor.

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Erik Lindahl
Freecloud Post Production Services
http://www.freecloud.se

[Frank Black]

Thanks Erik. From your four posts, I learned a lot about FCP (and about post). Cool website by the way — the site and the first two commercials (very very very cool). Looking forward to seeing the rest. Thanks again, and I’m open to anything else you may want to advise me on — in regards to FCP or post. My workflow intentions are undefined but client-oriented so far.