follow up to 2 302s 6 mikes 2 camcorders

[Craig Alan]

Thanks John,
I thought sync was based on time-code. And yes this research started with an audio tech telling me that a waveform sync (like aligning a clapper spike in post) would not sync separate tracks of audio recorded on different non-synced cameras good enough for music.
He did say he was able to sync properly using pro tools making corrections in very small increments that a NLE is not able to do. He also implied he would prefer not to have to do this.
I have no budget for a pro and pros are not necessarily teachers. I’ll continue to look for articles or tutorials or advice from whomever but if I don’t get any further I will :
Jam sync camera 1 (the master) to camera 3.
Connect time-code out to time-code in camera 1>camera 2
Connect camera 1 video out > genlock in on camera 2.
I’ll connect 302 mixers to camera 1 and camera 2.
Two mikes to each mixer; one on each channel.
Camera 3 will be free to roam and be cordless and will just use the internal mike.
Then I’ll import all three sets of media in FCP X and see what I’ve got.
The next time I get some funding, a 6-8 channel mixer/recorder is on the top of the list. I’ll also look into what tools are needed to make this easier if jam syncing does not do the trick.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[John Fishback]

Sounds reasonsble. You may have to slip & slide with Cam 3 in the edit, but it should be close. If you have breaks in your schedule, you might want to jam sync Cam 3 every hour or so.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.4, QT10.1, Kona 3, Dual Cinema 23, ATI Radeon HD 5870, 24″ TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.3, Motion 4.0.3, Comp 3.5.3, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.3)
FCP-X 10.0.9, Motion 5.0.7, Compressor 4.0.7

Pro Tools HD 10 w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec DSP Monitors, Prima CDQ120 ISDN

[Craig Alan]

Thanks again John.

I appreciate your patience. It is not easy being a one man band.

I must say that riding the gain, mike placement, audio mixing is the part that takes experience, talent, craft, and a good ear. But just learning to connect things so they all allow for this is easy to do but very hard, sometimes, to learn how to do.

This particular puzzle has really surprised me on how hard it has been to get solid consistent advice. I mean Panasonic senior tech support has “no experience” using time code and genlock? Really? Someone there decided to build these features in to a prosumer level camcorder that they advertise aggressively.

Yes I read about the reported small drift over time and any power interruption with jam synced cams.

Cam 3 here is really just for learning. The set up will give us 4 tracks of audio which covers two guitars and 2 vocals. Ideally we would have two guitars and three vocals and a bongo covered but I know from our tests so far that the AT 4053s pick up the bongos and singers seated over their guitars pretty well. The guitar that is miked dominates and the lead vocalist has her own shure mike and her track sounds really good to my less than pro ears. The band liked the video we played back through an Imac with just three mikes mixed live into two channels to one camera.

My goal in the long run is to offer this to our music teachers and students so they can have decent reels of their talent and hard work.

In any case it’s a start and should be way better than just using an attenuated house feed or a mike stand near house speakers or two mikes on two stands in front of a group — all of which I’ve used before.

If it turns out we can’t afford a sound devices 6-8 channel mixer then I’ll go for the zoom H6.

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Bill Davis]

The referenced post has outdated info.

Modern NLEs typically allow you to slip audio in subframe increments – so you can address phase problems pretty easily.

I highly recommend that you NOT try to record any audio on the cameras themselves – other than on-camera mics for scratch track post sync.

It would be much better to have a second system master of a live audio mix, plus ISO stems to use if the initial live mix isn’t what you were looking for.

A laptop running digital audio workstation software is the standard here – taking feeds from whatever mics or direct boxes you’re using for performance capture.

This is important because sound is very slow compared to light – and while video coming from multiple cameras will all stay in sync – audio hitting mics that are separated by space will have noticible time delays. So you want to get the mics away from the cameras and on to the musical performers directly.

Direct box feed are MUCH better than mics in space – unless the room ambiance is an essential part of the sound you’re trying to record.

With modern NLE tools, syncing sound with visuals isn’t particularly difficult any more.

IMO, you should concentrate on your visuals – and have a different strategy and brain in place that can concentrate equally (but separately) on recording the audio.

Good luck.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.

[Craig Alan]

Thanks Bill,

I found this:

https://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/tutorials/1191-sub-frame-audio-editing-within-final-cut-pro-x

which explains the process of subframe audio editing pretty well.

I’ll look for another specifically addressing syncing multiple channels of audio.

[Bill Davis] “I highly recommend that you NOT try to record any audio on the cameras themselves – other than on-camera mics for scratch track post sync.
“

Yes this was my only use for the internal mikes. Just as a reference.

[Bill Davis] “It would be much better to have a second system master of a live audio mix, plus ISO stems to use if the initial live mix isn’t what you were looking for.”

Yes I hope to add a sound devices 6-8 channel mixer recorder to our arsenal.

[Bill Davis] “A laptop running digital audio workstation software is the standard here – taking feeds from whatever mics or direct boxes you’re using for performance capture.”

You are saying using a laptop as the audio recorder? What software would you recommend?

[Bill Davis] “This is important because sound is very slow compared to light – and while video coming from multiple cameras will all stay in sync – audio hitting mics that are separated by space will have noticible time delays. So you want to get the mics away from the cameras and on to the musical performers directly.”

Yes I explained the mikes are placed with the talent feeding 302 mixers (2 mikes each one to each channel) which in turn feed the camera audio inputs. Now if we could feed a laptop instead as a second system sound recorder that would be interesting. Though I have no experience with audio software and am pretty up to my eyeballs in learning new stuff right now.

[Bill Davis] “Direct box feed are MUCH better than mics in space – unless the room ambiance is an essential part of the sound you’re trying to record.
“

Do you mean a DI box? If so a quick idiot’s guide to the set up would help: what is connected to what and what unit would you recommend at what cost?

[Bill Davis] “IMO, you should concentrate on your visuals – and have a different strategy and brain in place that can concentrate equally (but separately) on recording the audio.”

I have plenty of hands to do this. But I am the one man band teacher and have to figure it ALL out first.

Craig

Mac Pro, macbook pro, Imacs (i7); Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170/AG-HPX250P, Canon HV30/40, Sony Z7U, VX2000, PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.

[Bill Davis]

No time for too much response right now, but do a Google search on Firewire Mixers and you’ll find a number of units that can take multiple mic feeds, set levels appropriately for a live performance – while simultaneously grabbing multiple channels of PFL audio from the channel strips to record on a laptop.

Done every day.

Any modern laptop has all the horsepower needed to do superb multi-track audio recording.

And the mixers often come with – or at least recommend suitable multi-track recording software that works with their hardware.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.