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first really commercial/corporate job with FCPX
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[Jeremy Garchow] “To add to that, 23.976 fps is actually 23.9760239760239… fps”
But, what hasn’t been clarified, is whether Apple uses a true 23.976 or actually rounds the media and not just the name to 23.98. If you look at the metadata properties of an Apple-generated file and an Adobe generated file, the info is expressed differently. With Adobe specifically, you must export/render as 23.976 and not 23.98.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
Where are you going to view material that’s shot 24p in 24p except the web? Everything else is 60hz based and has to have some sort of pulldown (interlaced or otherwise) applied to it by the time it hits your screen. That’s why a 120hz or 240hz TV is great for 24p. They are perfect multiples of 24 so there aren’t any cadence issues. Each frame is displayed for the same duration. But you can’t rely on someone having a 120hz or 240hz or greater system.
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[Oliver Peters] “With Adobe specifically, you must export/render as 23.976 and not 23.98.”
If you render something at 23.98 (which means that you have an application that allows you type in a manual frame rate and the user enters 23.98 specifically, such as Ae) then FCP7 will render the file incorrectly as the frame rate is not 24000/1001.
Mostly, if you can choose from a drop down menu of 23.98, applications use the fraction. Ae lists 23.976 in drop down menus.
In FCPX, the tc is expressed as a fraction at least in the XML.
FCP7 seems to use the proper fraction, and not round to 23.98.
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[Bret Williams] “Where are you going to view material that’s shot 24p in 24p except the web?”
Bret,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Cinema_Package#Picture_MXF_files
(Note that 23.976 is deprecated in that standard.)
[Bret Williams] “Everything else is 60hz based and has to have some sort of pulldown (interlaced or otherwise) applied to it by the time it hits your screen.”
I don’t know what you mean by this. If you’re referring to 59.94 Hz broadcast, then yes that is a standard. So is 50 Hz. So is 24p and 25p (and more if you look at that DCP link).
So “everything besides the web” is not “60Hz based”.
I’m also confused by your conception of pulldown here – what do you mean that “everything .. has to have some sort of pulldown .. applied to it”? This is not true.
Examples:
– cam orig at 59.94i displayed on a 59.94i screen requires no pulldown.
– cam orig at 59.94i displayed on an NTSC screen requires no pulldown.
– cam orig at 50i displayed on a 50i screen requires no pulldown.
– cam orig at 25p displayed on a 50i screen requires field interpolation with no pulldown
– cam orig at 23.976 displayed on a 59.94 screen requires 3:2 field interpolation (commonly referred to as “3:2 pulldown” which I say is a misnomer)
– cam orig at 24 displayed on a 59.94 screen reuqires 3:2 pulldown (which I am arguing is a more precise application of the term)How do you differentiate between those last two examples?
Franz.
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[Bret Williams] “Where are you going to view material that’s shot 24p in 24p except the web? “
Well, not exactly. A lot of shows and spots are mastered as 24fps. In the pro world, many monitors support 23.976p or PsF viewing. You can author and distribute 24fps DVDs and these play fine. Granted the player adds the pulldown.
If you master 24fps media, you typically create converted NTSC, 1080i or 720p broadcast masters from the 24p master. Bottom line is that having a 24fps master gives you something that is the most malleable for scaling and format conversions. It’s also the best format to encode, because you get a better image at low bitrates than anything interlaced or with higher frame rates.
Definitely interlaced should have died off a long time again, but unfortunately it didn’t.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
Does everyWHERE else make more sense? And I was discussing 24p and NTSC standards because that’s what the OP is discussing. Everything (everyWHERE) else meaning any where else you want to view your 24p is going to be a 60hz system and that 24p image will have to have some 3:2 (whatever you want to call it) added to it. The rest of the planet calls it pulldown, but you can call it what you want.
So, I agree with your list obviously. Pulldown doesn’t need to be added to 25p in a 50i environment. Or 30p in a 60i environment. My point, is if you’re working with 24p it’s going to get displayed as some form of 3:2 pulldown/field interpolation/whatever to be shown anywhere but the web. The display devices at our disposal, and the broadcast standards are 60hz based. They’re 60p. They’re 60i. They’re 120hz, or 240hz, or 600hz, etc. You’re not going to see 24 perfect frames in a row until you’re monitoring 24p on a 120hz TV. My flanders monitor has a 24hz mode, but not many consumer TVs do. Gary is worried about cutting on a field, but that’s really beyond control. If you cut on the wrong frame in a 24p edit, that frame might end up as a single field when it’s has pulldown applied later on.
And back to the OP, he was mixing 24,30, and 25. The best common denominator to mix 24 and 30 is simply a 60i sequence or a 30p sequence. And I’d just slow down the 25 to 24 so it plays nice too. That was the whole original point. There’s not much point in going through hoops to make the 30p look like 24p for the sake of working in a 24p sequence, unless you’re dying to make the 30p have a more film like look or you need it to match the look of the 24p. Since this was about a run and gun edit over night corporate presentation, I’d guess it’s more about getting it done. Trying to convert 30 to 24 is the last thing I’d be trying in the middle of the night for a smile and wave video! -
[Bret Williams] “My point, is if you’re working with 24p it’s going to get displayed as some form of 3:2 pulldown/field interpolation/whatever to be shown anywhere but the web. The display devices at our disposal, and the broadcast standards are 60hz based.”
Actually many monitors (pro and consumer), as well as projection systems, support native 24fps playback without added pulldown cadences. Some do 23.976p and other 23.976psf. This is supported over SDI and HDMI.
I agree though, that in a corporate presentation environment, 720p/59.94 or 1080i/59.94 is probably the correct mastering format. That’s simply because of all the other elements in the live presentation mix, like cameras, PowerPoint, etc.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Bret Williams] “… any where else you want to view your 24p is going to be a 60hz system and that 24p image will have to have some 3:2 (whatever you want to call it) added to it. … My point, is if you’re working with 24p it’s going to get displayed as some form of 3:2 pulldown/field interpolation/whatever to be shown anywhere but the web. … The display devices at our disposal, and the broadcast standards are 60hz based.”
Bret, these statements are not true.
(Even if I assume that you mean “computer monitor” when you say “web”.)
I understand if you’re trying to express that most options that you personally encounter are 60Hz based. There are many other options out there. In fact, you yourself have one:
[Bret Williams] “My flanders monitor has a 24hz mode, but not many consumer TVs do.”
Also, you make it sound as if no one uses 50i and Europe doesn’t exist.
[Bret Williams] “The rest of the planet calls it pulldown, but you can call it what you want.”
Well, that’s certainly something like the way things are. But, for example, how do you explain pull-up using your definitions? Does it mean de-interlacing to you?
Franz.
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So I don’t see where we disagree at all. The moment consumers are sporting $2500 24hz monitors that are only 22inches like in edit suites, then they’ll have an outlet to watch all this 24p we create somewhere (other than the web) in all it’s 24p goodness.
Why did I buy that flanders again? 🙂
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Well heck, if the 60 was for slomo, then I digress. Edit in a 24p sequence, with your 60 conformed to 24, and your 25 conformed to 24. Done. Why would there be any interlacing problems when you shouldn’t be working interlaced? Just sounds like human error, not necessarily a problem with the NLE of choice. Just need to know what you’re doing. But who does at 4am? All bets are off on those edits.
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