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Firing a client – long post
Well I fired my first client this weekend. We were scheduled to shoot video in the Caribbean, and this client was getting stranger by the minute. They took over a month to approve my proposal, then came to me with less than a week before they wanted to travel and shoot. I normally require a deposit that covers my costs 6 business days before a shoot, especially with a new client. This client was going to drop off the check on Saturday, my crew was scheduled to depart on Tuesday. That would get me my deposit one business day before the shoot. I was still willing to send my crew.
Then, the client asked to tour my studio where we’d be editing. I work out of a home office and let the client know. (it had never come up before). The client changed her tone…wondering why my prices were “professional” yet I worked out of my home. Then she insisted we complete 2 videos within 3 days at which time she was going on vacation, when I had quoted her 5 days. I’m already booked on another project until the end of June. She was angry about this, while we had never discussed editing right away. She just wanted to shoot it “before hurricane season was in full mode” I offered to take all footage, give her burned in timecode windows on DVD at no charge so she could edit on paper. I’d work nights and weekends to accommodate her. Because I was giving her this option she insisted I drop my price by $1,000. Since she would be “doing my work during my time of need” (her quote) I said no way, and explained how I normally charge clients for this service.
Then the final straw, she sends me the weight/baggage requirements for the airline. I let her know that there will be excess weight/baggage. She says it’s because my crew isn’t packing correctly. I tell her that since she’s travelling with the crew, perhaps she can put the excess on her credit card, since my crew shouldn’t have to lay out the money. My contract says that client is responsible for all travel and transportation fees. She said her client would reimburse us, again saying how she would not “float any money” . She said if I couldn’t agree to that then perhaps we should call the whole thing off. That was my key to freedom. I said, I couldn’t agree, and let’s cancel this project. I wished her well.
Now the questions. They had bought air tickets 2 days prior to her even signing a contract. I never sent her my signature back. I never received a deposit check. Does she have ay legal recourse? My feeling was that if she was this poor of a communicator, this argumentative, nickle and diming everything, and realy rude getting to the shoot, I could only imagine sitting with her for 4 days in an edit session.
Second, how do you folks cover youselves in your contracts regarding cancellation. Let’s say you do not get their deposit on time. Or let’s say you are not meshing with the client and you see signs of trouble. Do you have specific wording in your contracts? Would you be so kind to share with me. Thanks. Sorry about the long post, but I do feel better after sharing this with you all.
Greg
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33 Replies
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[Greg] “I never sent her my signature back. I never received a deposit check. Does she have ay legal recourse?”
I don’t know where you live or under which set of laws you operate but here where we live (California) a deal is not a deal until a contract has been signed and money changes hands. Some argue that you can bind yourself under a set of legally binding constraints on a verbal agreement but I am 55 and have yet to see this hold water in a court of law. Others may have seen it and I will defer to their greater experience but as of today, I have never seen it hold water.
I think you are pretty safe to say that you are within your rights to bow out of this one. I would.
Best regards,
Ron Lindeboom
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Yeesh… From your wording, it almost sounds like this client made the decision ahead of time to break ties with you. What easier way to do so, than to make things so hard that you take the initiative?
1: Legal recourse? No, you’re fine – just like Ron says.
2a: Cancellations and late deposits? If you’re only going to do this verbally, do so constantly. The 1st sign of a problem, make a big deal out of it. Otherwise, a terse contract illustrating your “rates and conditions” would be fine. Most photographers I know demand 1/2 day pay if cancelled within 2-3 days.
2b: Not meshing with the client? That’s a bit grayer. Unless you’re a relentlessly sought after artist who can afford to turn down anything, I’d say grin and bear their personality shifts for the most part. Here’s a fun example of a similar situation:
— an ad agency I freelance edited for had a client that hated our end product. We fulfilled our creative end to the letter, but a major change in their attitude was clear. Well as it turns out, the client’s new wife (who was not present at any meetings leading up to this) had a couple years of production experience and claimed we were heading in the wrong direction. So, the agency that hired me convinced the client to let us perform one more edit, based on their new direction with the newly written clause in the now ammended contract that if this venture was not up-to-snuff, all services would be considered delivered and the client would be free to pursue other ad agencies. This is exactly what ended up happening. I heard later that the spots were completely re-done, and that new wife did the voice over!It sounds like this client of yours was receiving some sort of outside pressure, and didn’t have an authentic beef specifically with you or your services on that project. I wouldn’t worry.
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\`(=)`/…Pixel Monkey
`(___)Just finished editing “Frank Lloyd Wright’s Buffalo” – see it on PBS Sept 4, 2006 at 10pm.
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Sounds like you gave up your seat on the Titanic just in time to see it sail. My sense is to agree with the others that if you didn’t come to a complete agreement, signed off and money exchanged, it’s not considered a valid contract. Of course, I am not a lawyer, but this was on an episode of “The Paper Chase” one time, so it must be true:-)
You had a “Grinder”. Check the archives here for a great essay about them, I won’t repeat all the advice from it here. The only way this could have gone better for you is if it drove the client to your worst rival.
You stuck to your guns and held firm on your terms. With this action you lost a questionable client that was likely going to grind you until you wound up losing money on the hours put in. But you’re likely to retain your reputation and the business it brings. You have mantained your rates and terms as well as your dignity, and have not exposed your business to undue risk. You were a prudent businessman. Take yourself out to a nice meal and celebrate, you won.
I really do know how hard it is to let potential revenue go, when the bills are piling up, but trust us, this one wasn’t going to profit you in the long run, you did the right thing, and probably were overly charitable in not billing her back for stringing you along.
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[Ron Lindeboom] “I am 55 and have yet to see this hold water in a court of law”
Ron,
As you say, the odds of losing at trial would be negligable, however, being right and winning seldom negates the cost of mounting the defense, which could easily cost $40,000 or more.
My point is, most of posts I see here about these issues are about who is right and and who is wrong — and that should only be the starting point. I doubt anyone here would like to pay his or her lawyer 40k for being able to say they were right. The moral is, unless you want to buy your lawyer a 5-star vacation to Europe, do whatever you can to avoid litigation.
DRW
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I wouldn’t argue that point at all, David. I have seen people totally within their rights lose huge sums and even lose the battle.
Being right, while nice, is not what the courts are about. As I remember being told by a judge many years ago in a court battle that I was a part of: “This is not about what is right or just. It is about what is legal.” That was a real eye-opener and I would agree with you 100%, David, do all you can to stay out of court.
But remember: Many people will bully you with words about taking you to court when, in fact, it many times costs them just as much money to sue you as it does for you to defend yourself. Don’t rollover for every threat either… Sometimes, it’s like a game of poker and the other guy is trying to bluff you.
Ron Lindeboom
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[Greg] “My contract says that client is responsible for all travel and transportation fees.”
[Greg] “They had bought air tickets 2 days prior to her even signing a contract”
[Greg] “She said if I couldn’t agree to that then perhaps we should call the whole thing off.”
Firstly I am not a lawyer, but if your contract was signed by her then that means she agreed to your terms. ie. client pays for travel related fees. By her saying at the last minute that she didn’t want to pay or you should pay and be re-imbursed, would mean to me that she broke the contract and you would probably have cause to sue her for the amount you were to make on the shoot. My advice would be to call a lawyer and be prepared.
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[Ron Lindeboom] “Don’t rollover for every threat either…”
Absolutely!!!
I had one of those “clients from Hell” once who:
a) Had no talent whatsoever
b} Was a horrible person
c) Owed me lots of moneyAfter giving him fair warning that I would pull the plug on post-production if he didn’t pay me within one week, I was forced to do so. At that point the client’s lawyer called my lawyer and threatened to sue me if I didn’t complete the entire project without pay. My lawyer actually advised me to do the work, suggesting just as I mentioned earlier, that I would most likely prevail at trial, but, it might easily cost me $40K to defend.
It took me all of about 30-seconds to make my decision. I told my lawyer to send them a very clear and unambiguous message that I was prepared to go the distance no matter what it cost, and that I would never work with them again under any circumstances. They bitched and moaned at first, and then they settled, paying me just 60-cents on the dollar. But, I never did another minute of work for them…
DRW
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Frank Nolan: “My advice would be to call a lawyer and be prepared.”
This is one of the only things said here with which I take issue. Sure you can be prepared, but don’t start a lawyer’s taxi meter until there’s an actual reason. It’s far more likely that this woman will just go away. The best preparation would be to assemble all the pertinent documents, notes, recollections in one place. If you really have time to burn, build a timeline of what was said and when. Then put it away and move on.
Having been through serious litigation with someone who stole our work product (after months of deposition and preparation they settled the evening before the trial was to start), I can speak first hand for how mentally exhausting the process is. It can be like taking your business, your life and everything that matters to you and setting it aside so your mind can be taken over by legal BS. Massive amounts of time are consumed. It’s great to have been right and won. But looking back on what I paid in wasted time and the draining of positive energy, both sides lost. (The lawyers of course were the true winners — they ALWAYS are!)
Oh, and I especially like Mark’s wish that this drive her to your worst competitor. If only things worked out as well in life as they do in fiction!
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Thanks to Ron, David, Pixel, Mark, Frank, and Nick. As always, you guys are the best. Nick, I did what you said, compiled a file with all documents, emails, timelines, and description of events just in case. Frank, I don’t think I would go after her for a lawsuit. I’m just glad to have her out of my life.
Mark, your words are always encouraging, and right on. Thanks for your insight. I never heard back from her after writing my last email saying I was pulling the plug.
As an after thought though, do you folks have something in your contracts regarding cancellation? I’m thinking about 2 areas here… First they do not provide a contract and deposit when due, and second, it needs to be cancelled because of differences, changes in the scope of work, time frame changes, etc.
Lastly, how do you deal with things like rain for an outdoor shoot, or here in Florida a hurricane? Thanks again
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A guy who I respect says: “with the right people, you don’t need a written contract, with the wrong people, even a written one is not enough”.
So the first step to my mind is to filter out the likely bad clients before you even get to the negotiating stage.
More to your point, performance and non performance clauses are something you have to reach agreement on up-front, and should be part of any smart contract.
You want it spelled out, what gets billed to whom if for example you have a catastrophic equipment failure or accident on the set just before the shoot and can’t continue taping. If the stakes are high enough, I would in such a contract arrange (for an extra fee) to have replacement gear rented and ready or “on hold” for a quick delivery so the dud could be replaced and production could keep going.
I don’t know a lot of commercial production people who rent or buy a whole second camera just as an “in case” backup, but I know several wedding/event guys do, and some deposition shooters do, because you just can’t stop real life events and make them wait. Cheap clients will tend to not want to pay for the backup unit if it was never actually used, and it raises your rate. But they would get even madder if your ONLY camera died as the bride was entering the church and you wound up ruining “their most special day”. Perhaps if you get the right relationship and trust with a rental provider, they will not charge for the unused spare, or cut you a discount if you truly didn’t need it. A lot depends on the demand for the extra gear, and whether they passed up another rental just to back you up with the spare.
Back to the contract with the client, what are they willing to pay for to insure against such a worst case? Granted, it’s rare, but it needs to be spelled out in advance if all their recourse is just to get a refund.
Weather is out of your control entirely, the contract should specify that while you’ll give it your best shot, that’s all you promise. Re-scheduling may incur extra costs, and you need to tell them up front they will get billed a certain amount extra for that. If for example you hired a grip for the day and wound up rained out, you still needed to pay that guy for showing up, and will need to pay him again on the re-shoot. You have to pass that cost along.
As to cancellations, when I did weddings, I didn’t have any issue giving full refunds for cancellations as long as I had three days notice or hadn’t yet spent the down payment to book the camera rental (I never owned the camera, only rented it as needed for booked gigs). If the cancellation was 24 hours ahead, I’d refund everything but what I had to pay for the rental booking.
If, however, taking your gig precludes me from another, your cancellation means you have prevented me from TWO gigs, and now I’m gonna bill you something for my lost work, that’s only fair. How much has to be up to the individuals and the individual situation, I feel.
And this brings me to your editing “contract”. Did you have other biz you could have handled, other projects you could have edited, that were precluded by this harridan’s booking? Then you are justified in asking for some portion of a penalty for a last-minute cancellation. If it’s 48 hours or more, you have the chance to scare up another gig, so I would perhaps not charge a fee in that case, BUT… I WOULD put that client on a “watch list” and require a bigger advance deposit from such a client the next time they came back. Call it a “jerk tax”, call it whatever you want. Refundable later, of course, if warranted, but, you know, you gotta eat too. You can also decide to not give them the same “freebies” you used to, like free review dubs, or a break on digitizing fees.
The bottom line is to talk out all the possibilities and what you plan to do for each situation that comes up, then get that in writing at least as a memo of understanding, if not in a more formal contract.
Film producers pay lots of money for completion bonds and errors and omissions insurance. Not every project will justify such expense, but you should have a plan in advance of the gig and have everybody on the same page about it.
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