Final Cut Pro RT or not?

[Bret Williams]

Not sure about that system, but I can do a RT dissolve and a graphic over it in full DV quality without any dropped frames. I’m only running a Dual 1 ghz G4. If i keep it in safe mode I get the green light on just the dissolve.

But on any real time system I’d always render before going back to tape.

[Edition_5]

Bret Williams,

Thanks for the info Bret you wrote the following below.

But on any real time system I’d always render before going back to tape.

If you must render back to tape then it is not a real time system. I don’t think the Dual G5 with Final Cut Pro is an RT system like Edius on an Intel chip. In other words the dual G5 could not play a 5 minute long clip with CC and speed change in RT for the full 5 minutes with OHCI only. It might do a 2 second dissolve in RT or it may not. In other words you should render with Final Cut Pro. That is why I use Edius so I do not have to render and I can see everything in true RT on the NTSC monitor. I can use CC with transitions all day long without a droped frame on my 3.2 GHZ laptop. There is no need to render. I can even use a PIP with CC all day long in RT.

The sales men said the the dual G5 with Final Cut Pro was not true RT with OHCI but RT previews. I think that is the best wording to use.

Final Cut Pro is an OK program but I did not like the fact that it was not true RT. That is why I opted for Edius over a year ago. I am glad I did.

[Kaspar Kallas]

in DV quality theese thing run fine in FULL REZ, FULL FRAMERATE in FCP, in uncompressed timline – it is a different story

-Kaspar

[Bill]

“Real Time” is a very tricky word in the world of non-linear editing. It is a sales pitch word. Yes, as the systems get faster and the codecs allow for quicker data streams there are more realtime options. The key is most of it is “realtime” preview. I have never used the Edius and really know nothing about so I will not comment about it. I have used Avid, *edit, Stratosphere, M100, FCP…..and a few more that had a short lifespan. All of them had some kind of realtime preview but you always have to render before output. This is reality for the industry. FCP has made leaps and bounds with “Dynamic RT.” Of coarse some of it will get pixelated or choppy and drop frames but this is not your output version. If you like it render it and move on or keep going then take 5 go get a soda and a whatchamacalit while it renders. I use FCP in a SD 10bit uncompressed enviroment and have never felt that rendering something “slowed me up.” Maybe one day we will be renderless, but in the meantime embrace it. It really isn’t that big of a deal. It’s life as we know it.

[Edition_5]

Kaspar Kallas,

Are you speaking of cuts only editing or PIP with CC?

bill,

I agree with you 90% but I can not say I agree with you 100%. Here is why. You wrote the following below.

Maybe one day we will be renderless, but in the meantime embrace it. It really isn’t that big of a deal. It’s life as we know it.

Edius does not render back to tape for DV-25, DV-50 or the HD Fire Wire cameras at DV-100. With DV-100 you may only get CC and a transition in RT but it is true RT. You would be amazed at what it does in true RT with DV-25.

bill you also wrote this.

“Real Time” is a very tricky word in the world of non-linear editing. It is a sales pitch word. Yes, as the systems get faster and the codecs allow for quicker data streams there are more realtime options. The key is most of it is “realtime” preview.

I agree with most of that. I used Editon by Pinnacle. It was VGA previews only but they looked smoother than the other software solutions. It was sold as a RT solution. You could get several layers in RT preview with the VGA monitor. It was full resolution and full frame rate in the VGA monitor but it had to render to go back to tape (DV-25). Vegas, Adobe, Ulead, etc were all the same except Editon was the only program to render in the back ground and the previews were very smooth. I was impressed with Edition so I bought it. If it was not for Edition I would have opted for FCP and a MAC. The FCP GUI is great but Edition could render in the back ground. At NAB 2004 Canopus released Edius 2.0. There was not much buzz about it. Some one had stated it was true RT with OHCI in a discusssion forum. I thought it was hype like Final Cut Pro, Vegas and Premiere Pro. It was not hype. I downloaded the demo from Canopus and was shocked. I bought it the next day. You can infact drop uncompressed in the timline and play it in RT to the OHCI port. It will get converteed to DV-25, DV-50 or DV-100 depending on what camera or deck you use. It does not convert uncompressed or MPEG 2 on import. The MPEG or uncompressed is dropped on the timeline and you hit play. As it plays the uncompressed or MPEG gets altered to DV-25 or DV-50. You can even add CC and transitions and PIP to the uncompressed or MPEG 2 video streams in RT. How does Edius do it? I do not know. I just know Canopus was the first to figure out the DV riddle with the REX and Storm systems. They were the first to convert muliple streams of DV-25 back to tape with RT cards like the Storm and REX systems. I get more RT with Edius 3.0 on my 3.2 GHZ laptop with OHCI than I did with a 1.4 GHZ system and my Storm. I wanted to edit on a laptop that is why I junmped ship to Pinnacle’s Edition but now I am back with Canopus.

Like I said other than Canopus’s Edius I don’t think there is a true RT solution with out an accelerator card.

[Kaspar Kallas]

PIP meanining picture in picture right?

yes I have 3 streams of DV all 3 way CC’d and cropped/scaled so that all of them are visible and FCP show full on top bar (dark green) if you would argue that being a preview tehn make a cut throug all three stream and render a part then you will not see any differece on either side, if you use uncopressed timline then you get bright green indicator meining PREVIEW – this you will have to render before laying to tape

so once again in DV timline YOU HAVE REALTIME (as real as they come) EFFECTS

-Kaspar

[Bret Williams]

Er, NO. That is NOT what I’m expressing. What I’m saying is that with a measly dual G4 I can get 2 layers of realtime, full rez, full frame rate out to DV or NTSC monitor or whatever. Real Time. No rendering. That is what FCP will guarantee (no guarantees in life) in safe mode. But if I switch to unlimited, where FCP gives it it’s best shot, I can get 2 layers of video and a still graphics layer. Give me a dual G5 and I’m guessing I can get many layers of DV.

In fact, on the Aurora IO systems (a less than $500 break out box) you can get 5-8 layers of real time uncompressed on a dual G5. Yes, out the component outputs, sdi, etc. Whatever you want. If you switch it to safe mode, you’ll probably be guaranteed 3 or 4 layers of uncompressed. Pretty much works just like the avid series. The rt is being done by the processors, so it scales up the faster processor you have.

Don’t know what the sales weasel was telling you, but it is a real time system. I just render before output because things happen. I want to be 100% sure that everything is rendered to full quality and there isn’t going to be some hiccup that I missed. I think the client deserves that.

There’s a lot more ot editing than rt. The interface and editing ability for one. Haven’t heard a lot of rave reviews about this Edius thing. Never heard of it at all.

[Edition_5]

Kaspar Kallas and Bret Williams,

Thanks for the info. Maybe I should have bought an Apple after all. It sounds impressive. Maybe the folks at the Apple Store do not know how to use it. Can either of you post what the settings should be for RT DV-25? I will show it to the sales person. I will have him or her play 3 five minute long clips with PIP and CC on the dual G5 at 2.5 GHZ.

[Kaspar Kallas]

Actually now I have to eat my words, after few hours of testing a I found a way where full is not the same when rendered – I hope it is a bug of FCP5 but maybe not

-Kaspar

[Edition_5]

Kaspar Kallas,

Sometimes Vegas can play an effect and it looks like it is RT at 720 X 480 60 fields per second but it will infact only be 48-58 fields per seccond. It looks good but it is droping frames. Other software some times plays 30 fields per second in RT . In other words half the resolution at 360 X 240 with odd or even fields only.

Let me know what you find out before I start bitchin at the sales person at the Apple Store. I know when I saw the demo last year I could tell it dropped frames. I think it was FCP 4. FCP 5 maybe better. I did not see a demo since the sales guy said it must render. I was not going to argue with him.