Final Cut 6 doesn’t remove duplicate frames during DVC Pro HD import from firestore/P2

[Michael Sacci]

I just did a test and it seems I had the same issue with 1080i 24PA, comes in as 29.97 but if I go to Tools and do the remove Advance Pulldown the clips is corrected to 23.98. Seems like 720P 24P is coming in correctly. Retimed clips had to be run through the Pan convertion tool to be corrected.

[John Papola]

My understanding of 1080i 24PA is that it works similar to the DVX100’s 24P advanced mode. That is, the material is retained on disk as interlaced but played back at 23.98 through a realtime pulldown removal at the quicktime level. I do have some material that I shot in 1080 24PA on the HDX and it does appear to be 23.98 in quicktime player. Still… I believe that the 1080i material is still there in it’s original interlaced form. Otherwise, the import would be doing a re-encode on the interlaced frames as it extracts them to progressive frames. The traditional varicam cadence is progressive, so final cut can simple drop the non-flagged frames without any re-encoding necessary.

I just tested this on my Mac Pro (8-core) and got the same result. 720p shot at 23.98 comes in at 59.94 with duplicate frames still there. I’m going to try uninstalling Final Cut and re-installing it. Perhaps that will help since this install was over top of the old version.

Sigh….

John Papola
Executive Producer / Director
Spike TV
New York, NY

[John Papola]

1080i 24PA to my knowledge operates differently than the progressive flagged-frame varicam stuff. Instead of physically removing the duplicate frames, 1080i 24PA footage is retained in it’s interlaced form and played back at 23.98 through a realtime reverse 3:2 pulldown. The usual cadence of advance mode interlace is done to facilitate this realtime pulldown removal as standard 3:2 cadence is apparently much harder to extract. That said, you shouldn’t have to use any tools to extract the pulldown. I’ve shot a number of spots with 1080i 24PA and haven’t had to do anything to the clips on import. So looks like we possibly have two import bugs on our hands.

My Mac Pro is also exhibiting this inability to detect and remove the duplicate frames on import, so I’m going to remove final cut and re-install it. Hopefully this is something related to old files from FCP5. I hope.

Again, if anyone else is having this trouble, I’d love to hear about it… and hopefully a solution.

Thanks

John Papola
Executive Producer / Director
Spike TV
New York, NY

[David Jahns]

I was just at an Apple “hands on” event where we were test-driving FCS2 – and I noticed the exact same thing.

Imported 720p60 format (shot at 24) – set Prefs to remove dupe frames, yet the FCP file was 59.94 with 2:3 duplicate pattern.

I showed the Apple trainer, and he said, “Hmm… that’s not right.” I had a number of other tech issues to get answers on, and he said he’d refer me to an Apple engineer on Monday.

So – if you’re re-install doesn’t fix your problem, then we all have a problem.

[Gary Adcock]

[John Papola] “1080i 24PA to my knowledge operates differently than the progressive flagged-frame varicam stuff. Instead of physically removing the duplicate frames, 1080i 24PA footage is retained in it’s interlaced form and played back at 23.98 through a realtime reverse 3:2 pulldown.”

Negative.
On capture the redundant fields are removed to give you 23.98 actual frames, which playback on a monitor as 48i- This is a function of the 1080 PsF specification and done on all 1080 24p content captured to tape in camera. That is why the format is called a progressive segmented frame.

“The usual cadence of advance mode interlace is done to facilitate this realtime pulldown removal as standard 3:2 cadence is apparently much harder to extract.”

Close, the cadence is different so that you do not have the fields from 2 separate frames being recombined into a new “mushy” C-frame 720p does not use Advanced Pulldown – there are no field issues because there are no fields, so it always uses the standard 3:2 pulldown.

“My Mac Pro is also exhibiting this inability to detect and remove the duplicate frames on import, so I’m going to remove final cut and re-install it. Hopefully this is something related to old files from FCP5”

Check to make sure you have not turned off the remove advance pulldown check box in the P2 import window preferences? that would turn off all pulldown removal in FCP6
after the software update.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[John Papola]

I am very sad to report that a totally clean reinstall did NOT fix the problem on my Mac Pro. Sh*t, this blows. Talk about dropping the ball on a feature that really helps set Final Cut apart. I’ll be calling Apple support tomorrow as well as digging through my contacts to see if I can get a little closer to the source. Is Michael Wong still at Apple? I’ll be sure to email from my mtv networks address.

Grrrrr…….. looks like I’m gonna need to have my DIT bring his laptop to set for the import instead of mine.

John Papola
Executive Producer / Director
Spike TV
New York, NY

[John Papola]

“Negative.
On capture the redundant fields are removed to give you 23.98 actual frames, which playback on a monitor as 48i- This is a function of the 1080 PsF specification and done on all 1080 24p content captured to tape in camera. That is why the format is called a progressive segmented frame. ”

So if Final Cut actually generates a different, smaller file that’s 23.98 native instead of an interlaced 29.97, doesn’t that mean it’s re-encoding the footage and causing a compression generation loss? Or… is the DVC Pro HD codec along with the segmented frame spec allow for the fielded frames to be recombined without a decoding and re-encoding the progressive image.

I’ll be very curious. An easy test would be to import one without removing the interlace and one with and check the file size.

John Papola
Executive Producer / Director
Spike TV
New York, NY

[Gary Adcock]

[John Papola] “So if Final Cut actually generates a different, smaller file that’s 23.98 native instead of an interlaced 29.97, doesn’t that mean it’s re-encoding the footage and causing a compression generation loss?”

no not at all.
it is only removing specific fields that are duplicated in the Telecine process- or the conversion of 23.98 frames to 29.97 frames.
The process is no different that it what is used in DV @ 24p– look at the embedding TC in your clip, the numbers drop out for the extracted frames.

” DVC Pro HD codec along with the segmented frame spec allow for the fielded frames to be recombined without a decoding and re-encoding the progressive image.”

correct

not that Segmented Frame is NOT a DVCPROHD issue. It is Sony thing, to maintain consistency with legacy video formats. ALL 1080 24psf does this, even cine-alta, and yes it does this only at playback. your NLE treats the image as progressive, and you do not see the interlace do to the field doubling.
It is not going to be an issue for you, because it is how the format works.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Gary Adcock]

[gary adcock] ” not that Segmented Frame is NOT a DVCPROHD issue.”

OOPS
that should read as

NOTE that Segmented Frame is NOT a DVCPROHD issue

amazing the difference an E makes…..

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Robert Longwell]

Any updates to this issue? I just upgraded to FCP6 and am having the same serious bug.

Robert Longwell