FCP to 1080i 59.94 Fps HDCAM Master Workflow Advice

[Shane Ross]

So you shot regular 24p, running at 29.97. Then you did a LOT of work to get it to 23.98, only to find that you need to output a 29.97 master? (1080i 59.94 runs at 29.97…yes, it’s confusing) Oy! This is why it helps to know what you will be delivering on before you start editing, or shooting for that matter. regular 24p at 29.97 has the same film look that 23.98 has, FYI.

[Evan Wolf] “We had some issues bringing it into final cut because of the 24p, instead of 24pA, but now have the final cut in a sequence has an editing timebase of 23.98 fps. We get interlaceing lines when it plays in FCP”

HOW did you get it to 23.98? Because the interlacing lines suggests that you didn’t do it right. But the thing is that the interlacing is something that COMPUTER monitors don’t show well, as they are progressive monitors, but regular monitors and TVs show just fine. So while it looks interlaced and weird on the computer monitor, it is, in fact, fine. But 23.98 shouldn’t be interlaced at all. So something is up. Not sure what. But leaving it at 29.97 would have been the better course of action, IMHO.

[Evan Wolf] “Is there a way to export my file to an Apple ProRes 422 HQ, at 59.94 frames?”

Again, to be clear, that’s 29.97fps. The 59.94 is a frequency….60i, meaning 60 interlaced fields, two fields per frame. So 1080i at 29.97. To get your project to that format as a file means that you will have to use Compressor to convert. So you are converting 24p from 29.97 to 23.98…and in a way that might not have been done right due to the oddness you see on screen, then you are going to convert it back to 29.97… what a lot of work for nothing! And your results may not even look good…

[Evan Wolf] “I am then giving this file to a post house to make the HDCAM, but if I give them a ProRes file in 23.98 FPS, they have to convert it there, and have told me there may be some artifacting during the process. “

Oh? The capture card they output from should do the conversion, on the fly, in real time, with no problem. If they have the right one, like the AJA Kona 3 or LHi. I have done this fine with no issues more than once. But I’m concerned why your 23.98 footage, that should be progressive, is showing interlacing. That might be where your issue is. That might be the thing that causes interlacing. The output shouldn’t. Can you call another post house for verification on that?

[Evan Wolf] “What is the standard workflow for things shot on 24p…to get to a 1080i master?”

Shoot 24p at 29.97, edit that way…then output. Easy as pie!

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Evan Wolf]

Thank you so much for getting back to me.

I know, should have thought about the output earlier on, but as this is my first major fest I’ll be playing at, well, its the first time I’ve come across these challenges. Live and learn, I guess!

The thing about how we imported was, when I set up the sequences, no matter what I set them to, when I dropped the clips in, FCP would say that in order for the clips to be played right, it would like to change the sequence settings…and then if I agreed, it would automatically change them to an editing timebase of 23.98, with a QT video compressor of DVCPRO HD 1080p30. Furthermore, if I go back and look at the actual clips in the browser, under their properties, they are listed as 23.98 frames and DVCPRO HD 1080p30 compressor. Could something have gotten messed up while importing them either from the camera to the hard drive in the field, or from the hard drive to FCP, when it unpacked them? When I brought them into FCP, I also played around with removing advanced pulldown (by simply going to Tools, remove advanced pulldown) to make the lines disappear, but none of it ever really worked. But since it never showed up on the DVDs, I just let it go. Someone at the time told me that was probably the case, that it was just an issue of computer screens not being able to show the interlacing properly. But why do the clips themselves show up as 23.98..if technically, they should not be? Could I have messed something up with the pulldown removal?

So I guess going forwards from here I have several options, as far as I can tell. I can:

1 – Leave it as is and export at 23.98, then let the post house do one of two things they have suggested. Either they will play out my 23.98 project to a 59.94 HDCAM tape, running the material through a Teranex machine which will perform the frame rate conversion, or they can play out my project at 23.98 to an HDCAM tape and then send it out for an Alchemist conversion. They say the second is better quality, but more expensive.

2 – Somehow figure out why the clips seem to be 23.98, correct it..and rework? This might be insane. But if the issue here is really with the way I imported the files, is there at least a workable way to re-link them all to the absolute originals on the drive and not loose all of the cuts, edits, changes, etc in our final cut? (I’m guessing not, but never hurts to ask…)

3 – drop the clips into a new sequence set at 29.97 fps and make it work. The complication with this would be, I had my sound done at a sound house, and don’t really have control over chaging it anymore. So now if I change the framerate of the video, it will no longer match up with the sound, which is a single file at this point. but I could most probably go through and trim the sound wherever the frames are dropped in the video, and make it work. If this is at all a good way to go about it.

Again, can’t thank you enough for the help. This stuff can be very convoluted and complicated, and the advice and your time are very much appreciated!
Evan

[Evan Wolf]

Also, to answer your question as to how I brought the files in originally, I used Log and TRansfer. Using Easy Setup to set Sequence settings, there is no option for a DVCPRO HD 1080p24. Only DVCPRO HD 1080pA24, and DVCPRO HD 1080p30, which I decided was closer and so I went with it. The files were imported as 29.97. But there were the lines. So I removed the advanced pulldown (someone advised me to do that, perhaps wrongly) and that is what made them 23.98. That’s how I got where I am!

[Bryan Banks]

[Evan Wolf] “The files were imported as 29.97. But there were the lines. So I removed the advanced pulldown (someone advised me to do that, perhaps wrongly) and that is what made them 23.98”

I’m a little confused… So are the lines showing up in your 23.98 clips? or was it just before you removed the pulldown?

did you shoot 24p or 24pA?

also, you don’t need a special conversion to go to 59.94… you just need the post house to add a 2:3 pulldown into your video.

-Bryan

[Shane Ross]

[Evan Wolf] “it would automatically change them to an editing timebase of 23.98, with a QT video compressor of DVCPRO HD 1080p30”

CORRECT! Because that IS the compressor for 24p video at 1080. Just like 720p 23.98 has a video compressor of 720p60. That is just the FORMAT TYPE, not the FRAME RATE. Basically something that you don’t need to pay much heed to. These are all based on tape formats, and tape formats cannot be 23.98, they have to run at 29.97 or 59.94…so that is their COMPRESSOR type. That might have been the cause of much confusion, I can see.

[Evan Wolf] “When I brought them into FCP, I also played around with removing advanced pulldown (by simply going to Tools, remove advanced pulldown) to make the lines disappear, but none of it ever really worked.”

Because you were ALREADY AT 23.98! Your frame RATE said so! Oy vey…what did you guys do?

[Evan Wolf] “But since it never showed up on the DVDs, I just let it go. “

Good…whew.

[Evan Wolf] “But why do the clips themselves show up as 23.98..if technically, they should not be?”

They technically ARE. If something was shot 24pA, and you imported using Advances Pulldown Removal (checked by default), then you got 23.98…and that is what you should have had. Why you had interlacing on the monitor, but not on the exports…puzzling. But this is why it is CRITICAL to have proper external monitoring, so you can see what you really have and judge that way. Judging the quality of your footage, in any way, on a COMPUTER monitor is just plain wrong wrong wrong.

[Evan Wolf] “Could I have messed something up with the pulldown removal?”

Possibly, if it succeeded and you used those clips. But it didn’t, did it?

[Evan Wolf] “Either they will play out my 23.98 project to a 59.94 HDCAM tape, running the material through a Teranex machine which will perform the frame rate conversion, o”

Do that. But do they not have a Kona card? That does it too, without the Terranex.

[Evan Wolf] “2 – Somehow figure out why the clips seem to be 23.98, correct it..and rework?”

HIRE SOMEONE to come look and make sure things are wrong. Because of your inexperience you are groping around in the dark, and taking small bits of advice on a forum might not help much. I can’t do a constant long back and forth (I work), and without actually BEING THERE and seeing things, there is no way on earth I can tell how things are. Bring in someone with experience, or bring it TO someone with experience and the proper gear to see what is going on.

[Evan Wolf] “3 – drop the clips into a new sequence set at 29.97 fps and make it work.”

No. This will not work, and is the worse suggestion of all. It just won’t work, no matter how hard you try.

This is why it is good to test your workflow, or hire people who know the workflow to either work on the film, or teach you what to do. Testing is a good way to teach yourself. I did this A LOT, I mean for MONTHS, before we shot one frame of P2 from the HVX-200 on the set. Feature films do so much testing before they shoot as well, they want everything to be working before they shell out MILLIONS on location, only to find issues in post.

Take this to a professional. Use this as a lesson learned. And test test test…

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Evan Wolf]

Bryan,

We shot 24p. We imported into a sequence under setup with preset for DVCAM HD 1080p30. This created 29.97 fps files, and they had interlacing lines. I removed the pulldown, which made them 23.98, and they still had the lines. But when I export them as QT files, they don’t have them anymore.

thanks for the reply,
Evan

[Evan Wolf]

Shane,

Thanks again, very kind of you to take the time to answer my long questions.

[Evan Wolf] “Could I have messed something up with the pulldown removal?”
Possibly, if it succeeded and you used those clips. But it didn’t, did it?

Well, the files came in naturally as 29.97, into our custom setup of DVCAM HD 1080p30 sequence, but then we removed the advanced pulldown, and all of our clips became 23.98. That’s what we edited with, and what we have in the final cut sequence today.

I’m going to go ahead and print off the file at 24p, take it to the post house, and hope they can make it work, either with the Teranex, or a Kona. And that it looks decent on the other side!

Can’t thank you enough for the help,
Evan

[Evan Wolf]

Eventually, heard from the fest that it would be alright if I sent them an HDCAM 24p copy, and so thats what we did. Worked fine, and looks great. Thanks again for the help,
Evan