FCP and Film

[Gary Adcock]

[nleonidas] ”
We shot S16 and had it transfer to Digibeta at 24fps. Then we had it transfer to a hard drive. On the get info of Quicktime files it states 29.97frame rates. So when I cutting the film do I cut at 24ftp timeline or 29.97 timeline.”

You will need to learn Cinema Tools.
NTSC is always recorded to tape at 29.97, so you will need to telecine the content in CT to remove the extra frames so that you can edit in 24p. there will be some slight errors on this footage do to the introduction of the 3:2 pulldown to get the footage to 29.97 from 23.98 (24p)

The other solution is to edit at 29.97 and then use CT to conform the edl back to 24p – this method does usually require some extra effort as you might be editing on frames that do not exist at 23.98.( 24p)

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Michael Alberts]

The process is fairly involved with FCP. You want to make sure you follow all the steps properly to insure a proper Cut List. You really should read the Cinema Tools manual which goes through the steps in some detail. If you have problems or specific questions arise just post back here at the Cow.

Michael Alberts
Ambidextrous Productions, Inc.

[Dom Silverio]

[gary adcock] “the footage to 29.97 from 23.98 (24p)”

Gary becareful. This is incorrect especially when you are dealing with film. 23.976 and 24p in regards to film are 2 different frame rates. You will ruin your audio sync if don’t differentiate.

First you need to ask the DP the frame rate – is 23.976 or 24p flat.
Then you will need to find out if the producers are paying for sync sound transfer.

If not they you got a lot of sync’ing work ahead of you.
Ask how the audio will be recorded. With pulldown or no pulldown.

Can you get a Flex File or not?

Anyways, you will need to understand Cinema Tools before you begin. It is far too complex to explain it here in one posting.

good lcuk

[Mike J.]

Listen, way to much casual attitudes toward the subject I say.

If you think that footage is 24 fps recorded on a Dbeta… you might be a bit over your head here. I’m not being mean…just realize…

The finished product dictates the workflow. Giving casual answers although immediate and helpful from all…may be to uninvolved and potentially damaging in the end.

You need to decide what the final master product is:

FILM?
TAPE? if so what format
Who’s doing the mix and with what equipment?
What rates can they handle and what do you give to them as PICTURE LOCK.
At what rate is this picture lock?
Are you syncing the audio from the set or was it synced in telecine?
At what rate is this set audio recorded at? 47.952, 48,48.048
Working at 24fps in Final CUT without hardware like aurora igniter STILL requires the same workflow as working in 23.98 to make it playback on monitors – This is programmed this way.

Advice: Safest bet it to work at 23.98 (in FCP) by pulling down audio (if you’re syncing it up) Most post facilities work from VIDEO RATE not 24 fps quicktime movies. You need to investigate your finish.

Don’t approach this lightly. If this appears over your head…DO NOT SIMPLY DIVE IN to start editing without a finish plan.

My thoughts

Mike

[Gary Adcock]

[mpe] “Gary becareful. This is incorrect especially when you are dealing with film. 23.976 and 24p in regards to film are 2 different frame rates. You will ruin your audio sync if don’t differentiate. First you need to ask the DP the frame rate – is 23.976 or 24p flat. Then you will need to find out if the producers are paying for sync sound transfer.”

You are very correct about the audio — at 24.0 the audio needs to be recorded at 48.048khz,

but in my experience I have never gotten a telecine transfer from film to Dbeta that had 24.0 for a frame rate, but that may be the result of living east of the Sierra Nevada’s or the fact that my transfer house does all tapes DF.
My HDCAM and D5 telecine masters always seem to be at 24.0. however.

Either 23.98 or 24.0 frame rates can be used – check with your finishing editor if you have one. but for a first timer at this it will be much easier on your brain to see if you can stick to a 23.98 frame rate rather than dealing with the issues that you can encounter when working at 24.0 such as audio sampling, exaggerated “judder” with 24.0 content playing back on NTSC displays and the like.

Correction: the removal of the 3:2 pulldown is called reverse telecine, not telecine as I said in the previous post.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Steven Gonzales]

Here’s a link that is a little dated, but the basics are the same:

https://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/JanFeb03/tip_cinema_tools.html

There’s a lot of confusion out there, but the basic issue I think is that film is a dual system: the sound and picture are recorded separately. When film shot at 24 frames per second is transferred to NTSC video, it is slowed down slightly to match the 29.97 frame rate of video (it is actually played through the telecine machine at 23.976 frames per second).

This video is now slightly slower than the sound recorded separately on the set.

If the lab syncs things up for you, there isn’t that much to worry about. They slow down the audio while adding it to the video tape of the film transfer. You get a tape with everything in sync.

When you bring the video and sound to an edit system to sync them up, you can either: slow down the audio and edit at 29.97, slow down the audio and edit at 23.97, or leave the audio as is, and speed the video back up to 24 frames per second.

If you edit at 23.97 or 24, it is easier to go back and cut the film negative.

Telecine to NTSC video at 29.97 use a series of fields (1/2 of a video frame) to turn 24 frames per second film (played back slightly slower) into 30 frames of video (played back slightly slower). This is done by every other frame of film being turned into 2 fields (or 1 complete frame) of video, and the alternating frames of film being turned into 3 fields (or 1 and 1/2 complete frames) of video. The next cycle of this begins again, but the first of the “2 field” group actually becomes the 2nd field (completing the 1/2 frame left from that last “3 field” group) of that previous video frame.

The short story is: on film transferred to video at 29.97 frames per second, some frames of video are sharing a field from 2 different frames of film.

This 2 and then 3 field sequencing is called pulldown, which is a little confusing because pulldown is explaining 2 things, the field conversion pattern AND the slowing down of the frame rate.

Cinema Tools can undo this field patterning, to convert 29.97 video from a film transfer to either 23.97 or 24 frames per second, eliminating the frames of video that are sharing film frame source information.

Hopefully this gives you a perspective to choose your best post production process.

[Samuel Frazier]

Unless otherwise stated by your film lab, video is transferred to dbeta at 29.97 and removing the pulldown in Cinema Tools will make it 23.98. You have to tell a lab you want it 24.0 rather than 23.98 and they’ll probably fight with you if you insist on 24.0 (and for good reason!). I just went to the lab the other day and was told a story of the one guy who insisted that his footage be 24.0 rather than 23.98 b/c that’s what his editor told him to ask for. A couple days later and the editor called wanting to know why his tape wasn’t working right.
Here’s a site that discusses syncing audio manually (i.e. not syncing it yourself):

https://www.zerocut.com/tech/2_3_audio.html

I believe that it’s a nonissue unless you have a take longer than around 1 minute as any sync issues will not be noticeable until that time.
For my part, I thought the process from lab to 23.98p edit wasn’t too bad. I captured at 10 bit uncompressed from the digibeta tape onto a Lacie big disk extreme. I made sure I started the capture of each reel from the burn in and ended the capture on a ‘0’ or ‘5’ on the time code. Then all you have to do is use Cinema Tools to reverse the telecine from each reel and you have your 23.98p material.
The 10 bit material was too much for my Mini, so I used the Media Manager to made NTSC DV (DV25) copies of the reels. From the timeline, I found I could make each clip offline, then reconnect it to the 10 material and back again at will. No problems so far and have done the switch at least a couple dozen times.
When it came time to put the final product (a short film) back on a dbeta tape, I found my friend’s decklink card added the pulldown during preview. So, it went back to tape at 29.97 w/o any need for adding the pulldown in After Effects or using the Nattress Standards Conversion. I’ll probably end up buying Standards Converter at some point though as there’s a lot that plug in can do.
Anyway, I found this course to be very manageable. Also, it did not require the use of a dbeta deck for nearly as long as it would have taken had I done an offline capture and tried to batch capture once the edit was complete. Of course, I did not have any delusions about going back to film, so I learned little to nothing about flex files or anything to do with that sort of thing. But, if going back to film is not an issue, than I think this process to 23.98p is very doable and not nearly as scary as it sounds.