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EX3 files not working in final cut
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It seems like a typical XDCAM EX 1080i59.94 file.
Subjective terms like “doesn’t look like HD” are dangerous. HD would be defined by frame size and EX is the codec in this case.HD, badly shot, can have all sorts of nasty characteristics, grain included. Bad lighting, gain up, poor choice of Picture Profile settings, can all result in grainy shots amongst other problems. If anything, HD requires far more attention to detail because many issues are far easier to see then with SD.
Even “grainy” is vague. It depends on where the grain is in the picture and why it’s there.
You may need to provide a screen shot and the camera settings as best as can be remembered.
Alas one of the nifty features with ClipBrowser is that it shows you all the camera settings stored in the meta data . . . that is lost if you toss out those critical folders. -
Just to update, she has used video cam’s very similar to this in the past with excellent results so do not thing the taping of the scenes or how to use the camera is a problem. They have shot short films before with excellent results so we are not thinking first time users here. When reviewing these most recent files on the camera during shooting, the quality was fantastic. She said she hooked her Mac laptop up to the camera at one point and not sure how but was able to watch one of the files on final cut and she said the quality was great. I don’t think she would be so concerned about the graininess of the videos if this were not the case and they just do not look great or as good as when first previewed. We do have the BPAV folders intact with all the files in each individual folder of each clip as was stated in an earlier post. I think the issue is now not so much the program clip browser which she already has to get the folders to final cut but the thinking is some drivers from sony or software that works in conjunction with final cut to get the files looking good is missing. Also, many have warned when you go PC to Mac and back it creates issue on occasion. The issue is the time frame she had and the way we got the files by copying them to my pc and then to her MAC instead of having the time and transferring to her Mac right from the get go. On the info I posted in reference to the specs of the files, do they look correct? If so, it has to be something simple in the transfer to final cut we are missing.
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[Mike Neders] “When reviewing these most recent files on the camera during shooting, the quality was fantastic”
Which would then point with a workflow or settings issue in post. The mp4 on her computer is the very same thing she saw in the camera. Only a transcode or settings issue can result in degradation.
[Mike Neders] “but the thinking is some drivers from sony or software that works in conjunction with final cut to get the files looking good is missing.”
This doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Drivers don’t change the file. The EX codec is installed with Final Cut Pro and doesn’t have any impact on the quality.
[Mike Neders] “Also, many have warned when you go PC to Mac and back it creates issue on occasion.”
None whatsoever on file quality. If you don’t follow the proper workflow you can get “invisible” files in the folder structure and your post points to such possible oddity but it has no impact on the file. She’s using the .mp4 as created by the camera. I’ve input files into a Windows XP PentiumD and moved them to a MacPro on my network and it’s entirely harmless. Even if the folder structure where to somehow become botched, there’s no harm to the .mp4 files at all.
[Mike Neders] “On the info I posted in reference to the specs of the files, do they look correct?”
Nope. Not to me. You’ve got some odd files there. That would have no impact on the .mp4 though at all.
I’ve also used the CalibratedSoftware EX plugin as well and there’s no impact on the .mp4. Sony’s wouldn’t either.
I’d also add the ONLY way to confirm quality of the recording is on a broadcast monitor or the best possible calibrated monitor you can get, short of that. You can’t judge the detail with the same accuracy and confidence using an uncalibrated camera LCD. Since Sony’s EX LCD isn’t quite the same as other LCDs the only way to judge what reality “might” be is having first hand experience with the LCD and then seeing the resultant file on a Proper monitor. At that point one has the experience to know how the LCD is impacting one’s perception. In fact the very first time I did a test shoot with my EX in December 2007 and looking at the results on different monitors, after the shoot, did I realize how different that LCD was from what I had come to expect from other cameras I’ve used.
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Craig, thanks very much for the help and responses. On the quality issue, I agree with the differences between monitors and how it looks but it seems so dramatic in the differences. I guess the best way I can describe it is like the first time you went from basic cable to HD on your TV and thought wow, never thought it could be this good. The link to the person giving some direction on using the camera is very good and I only wish we would have had the time to study it. Also knowing what was planed should have done some posts like I have seen on site with people asking for Guidance before they start. My thought is it would have to be the settings on final cut if their is no change in quality from going pc to mac. Her MAC has a great monitor and she is using the better processor i7 intel with a lot of memory. Only issue is the MAC computers at school are also showing this degradation in quality with final cut. Its like setting that iso way to high and then getting the noise all over the shot. Hopefully it is settings issues and we can correct it because we both think it should look better and as you confirmed the settings on the camera were ok as seen by the mp4 properties. Will keep you posted and respond right away if we figure it out.
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Stop the presses! Need to correct some info I have been giving on the video and how it is being played. When she was filming they took the camera and connected it directly to her MAC laptop and played some of the clips they shot directly on a media player on her MAC, VLC Media player. She said the clips, full screen with the player connected to the camera, were beautiful and looked like HD. Dragging the files to her laptop, and then again playing on the VLC video player, major change in the quality. So VLC was reading the files differently off the camera folders versus now reading them off folders on her MAC. She has not viewed them in Final Cut as of yet. My guess is software or video driver issues on her MAC? Could this be the issue? Project is due soon so I am hoping anyone can help. Thanks.
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[Mike Neders] “I agree with the differences between monitors and how it looks but it seems so dramatic in the differences.”
In my own experience, I found it far more dramatic on the EX than with any other camera I had used. Of course it depends where you’re coming from but the demands for calibrated monitoring whether on camera or in the edit or magnitudes more important with the EX’s sensor.
1/2″ chips vs 1/3″
Radically improved low light performance
CMOS handling of the image vs CCD
XDCAM EX codec vs others
Radically high resolution of about 1000 lines resolved in some situations.
All this puts huge demands on calibrated monitoring. Noise not visible on the camera LCD would be plan as day on a calibrated monitor.Once you used the camera in extreme circumstances and the LCD in default and then compare on a calibrated monitor, the differences can be radical. I discovered this first hand. I did test shoots with the camera and saw the differences. Once you know the differences you can compensate in your head but until then it’s EASY to make MAJOR mistakes if you used the camera LCD without having first made a comparison.
Once I made that comparison I found there were times I could shoot at night or in dark locations at 0 or -3 gain depending on what I wanted. I knew that I might want to crush the blacks at times. I had basic picture profiles setup and would switch through them on location, knowing what might be good for in camera vs what might give me more flexibility in post.
Given the control it seems people who have shot with $30,000 and up cameras had the experience to anticipate what the EX camera could should like than those with other $5,000 cameras.
Assuming the lower end of the budget spectrum, one should calibrate a monitor with a Spyder Elite (which can be set to target REC 709) or the latest firmware of MXO2 out to an HDMI monitor. It won’t rival a higher end calibrated monitor but that will get you close. You simply can not look at an uncalibrated computer monitor and know what you’re looking at. You can’t look at an uncalibrated LCD on an EX and think that’s going to be close to what it looks like on a calibrated monitor. At the very least once you’ve seen the difference, you can compensate “in your head” on location or otherwise tweak the LCD to match a monitor by eye.
Personally my test shoots were also grainy at first because the LCD was not showing what I was seeing on a larger monitor.
[Mike Neders] “Her MAC has a great monitor”
It’s not about “great” it’s about calibration. If you’ve looked at a typical computer monitor at it’s default vs a broadcast monitor they are worlds apart.[Mike Neders] “Its like setting that iso way to high and then getting the noise all over the shot. “
Unfortunately, probably the camera LCD wasn’t displaying the noise that was actually being shot. Alternately one has to check on a calibrated monitor to see if the computer monitors are not even close to true. There is no “setting” in Final Cut to fix that. The .mp4 is what’s recorded. If the monitor is accurate and there is noise one has to consider how to grade the shots to lower the visible noise in the recording.
The .mp4 info only shows the file is recorded as it should. The settings, F-Stop, Gain, Picture Profile, can still do serious damage to the quality.
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Craig, thank you and everyone else who commented and tried to help with this issue. I have the clip browser installed on my pc and I pulled a clip in for viewing after finding the file folder on my hard drive into the program. I had the gentleman who rented the camera on the other phone line as he did the same thing using his MAC and pulled a very clean HD clip he had of something else so we could compare all the settings of each others clip. Not sure why but on the right side of screen in clip browser for PC I seem to have more tabs then the MAC browser or just labeled differently but one of them he did not see was a tab called Acquisition which shows more things about the clip other then what the general tab shows. I am reading them to him and I get to the gain setting and say its 18dB and he says there is your problem. The gain should have been set much lower on the camera and this is what is probably giving the video its graininess. I am guessing this is the case. Told my daughter and she started crying because she had a person who was suppose to know these things and make sure the settings were correct. She must have gotten 6 hours of sleep that whole weekend preparing for this shot and to have this happen really brought her down. The guy on the phone stated viewing the clip off the camera on the VLC player (the person who was helping me also stated not the best video player to judge quality) would not be a true version or look of what it actually looks like until you get it into final cut and see it that way.
We did find a site called neat video which sells a product you can install in several film editing programs like final cut which can remove the graininess and have examples on the site. Do you recommend or think this might help?
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[Mike Neders] “Not sure why but on the right side of screen in clip browser for PC I seem to have more tabs then the MAC browser or just labeled differently but one of them he did not see was a tab called Acquisition which shows more things about the clip other then what the general tab shows.”
It’s on the Mac version as well. You just need to make sure you’re using the same version. 2.6 at the moment I believe.
[Mike Neders] “I am reading them to him and I get to the gain setting and say its 18dB and he says there is your problem.”
Yes that’s the metadata I mentioned many posts back that ClipBrowser shows if you have the BPAV. That would not be there if you only have the .mp4.
Using 18dB gain is exactly what I was referring regarding experience as well as using the camera LCD. I’ve shot at night with 0 and even -3dB gain.
[Mike Neders] “Told my daughter and she started crying because she had a person who was suppose to know these things and make sure the settings were correct.”
All the above relate to comments I had made. regarding experience and monitoring. One needs to know the specific type of camera and be familiar with how its LCD performs.
[Mike Neders] “We did find a site called neat video which sells a product you can install in several film editing programs like final cut which can remove the graininess and have examples on the site. Do you recommend or think this might help?”
It will help but it will be a compromise. It’s not the same as having good video to begin with.
Neat video had a good reputation
https://www.neatvideo.com/
another noteworthy one
https://www.innobits.com/purifier.html
and they have a good reputation as well.
https://www.revisionfx.com/products/denoise/
These might be less expensive
https://www.chv-plugins.com/cms/Fx-Script/Repair-collection/NoiseReduction.php
Nattress is a great filter programmer as well and has one listed here.
https://www.nattress.com/Products/BigBox/Bigbox.htm -
Craig, thank you so much for your patience and time helping us out. Cannot tell you how much we appreciate it. Lesson learned with the Gain setting and I know it won’t happen again :). Will check those other sites out.
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