Ethics and Money Question…

[David Roth weiss]

Kenzo,

Its time to quit calling that fellow you’ve been working for your friend, he’s a liar and a cheat. And, while it sounds as though he’s helped you out when you were in need, he’s clearly taken advantage of you the entire time. It makes me angry just to hear about it. You must feel betrayed, and rightly so. I don’t think you owe him a thing…

So, if I were you, I’d bid the job as if this client had just walked in off the street, and don’t volunteer any information to your former friend or to the client. If you land the work and get chummy with the client, you can always tell them about the marvelous coincidence that has you doing the work for them again.

Good luck, I hope you get the work…

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY

[Charles Lorch]

I don’t think you owe anyone anything in this circumstance. So long as you didn’t pursue going around your client to get to the end client, there’s nothing wrong with placing that bid and potentially getting the work.
The one thing I’d look out for is will you potentially lose other work from your current client. We work with a number of ad and PR agencies , and wouldn’t consider skirting most of them in this sort of situation, even if we were in the right, due to the impact it would have with them long term. You have to evaluate which relationship will be the most valuable long term sometimes, because even if you’re in the right, don’t expect to work with your friend / current client again if you get the end clients work directly.
Also consider, is there anything your current client is doing for the end client that you don’t want to or can’t. You’d hate to get the gig and then end up losing it or even deciding you don’t want it, because then you’ve lost on both fronts.
In all there’s nothing wrong with it ethics wise, just make sure it’s your best move.

[Ron Gerber]

Sound like your “friend” is about to lose that client and in essence you’ll be losing your job with him. It’s very easy for me to say bid on it as your own company but your friend will eventually find out as will the final client. I would be upfront with both of them, bid on the project and the let the chips fall where they may. In the end you won’t have it weigh on your conscience.

[Walter Biscardi]

[Kenzo_UVW] “Should I submit a bid? Should I reveal to the client who am I? Should I take the account away from my friend? Or should I steer clear of this?”

Absolutely submit a bid, especially since you have the knowledge that your friend misled you on how much the client is paying per spot. That’s one thing I never do with any of my editors who work with me, I’m very upfront about client fees in the event that I ask them to work for a lower rate than usual.

The client approached you for a bid, not the other way around so I feel you are fully justified in submitting a bid because the client is obviously looking for another supplier. If you can do the work for half of what your friend was getting, but get to keep all that money, then you’re probably making double what you are now.

If your friend who hired you gets upset, that’s really not your concern because obviously the client is looking for a better deal. If you can supply that, more power to you. Sounds like a really nice steady gig so make a bid and good luck to you!

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

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[Mark Suszko]

First, it’s not always evil that you supply a service to someone who then charges a markup on it. That’s just business. How *much* of a markup is a delicate balance between what is reasonable yet competitive with others vying for the account, and what is reasonable for your time on the job. So just because he’s marking up your work to the final customer and pocketing a profit is not of itself a basis for the decision you want to make.

The fact that he’s charged 4 times what he’s paying you, WHILE grinding on you to hold your costs down while doing more work, IS a huge problem. HE’s in the wrong there.

Myself, I would decide if this is really a friend and one I want to keep. If yes, I’d confront him directly about this. If not, go ahead and bid, but if it was me, I think I would tell them I was the guy that was working for them all along, only now we’re cutting out the middle man and finding a rate that works well for both sides. I usually ask my wife for a second opinion about these kinds of things, she’s a great moral compass.

It does sound like he’s going to lose the account anyway, and all you need to do is underbid what he was charging by 25% and you are still going to be getting your raise you wanted, and more. You should, as was suggested earlier, make sure however that the extra money doesn’t come with surprise extra expectations not budgeted. As far as hurting other business contacts, well, what is the guy going to say to blackball you? “He stopped being my underpaid and exploited wage slave and started charging what he was worth, the NERVE of that guy!” 🙂

Whatever you decide, don’t do it just to get some kind of revenge on the friend. Do it because it is a good, ethical business decision.

[Tim Kolb]

markups are a sticky subject. I myself don’t care if an agency marks up my work to their client as long as they aren’t pleading hardship to me to get a discount rate…

Your friend may be taking advantage of you and simply pocketing the money or he may be in some sort of trouble and he needs the money for something…who knows?

The key is that the client approached you, not the other way around. I would tell your friend that the client has approached you and that you’ve decided to provide a quote.

I’m a big believer in being completely above board, however…

As these things can get ugly, I would then intimate that you know what he has been charging. I’d offer to leave unsaid that you were doing the work in order to not make him look bad to the client…which means he’d have to also keep his mouth shut rather than spread all sorts of undeserved bad vibes about you.

The client is happy, you’re happy, and he lives to overcharge another day…

A happy ending. 🙂

TimK,
Director,
Kolb Productions,

Creative Cow Host,
Author/Trainer
http://www.focalpress.com
http://www.classondemand.net

[Kenzo Kusanagi]

Hi!

First I would like to thank each and everyone of you who chimed in.

(BTW, you

[John Davidson]

I don’t see what good it’s going to do to talk to the guy about it. He threw you some work in down time, which was nice, but he exploited you in the process. Don’t give that kind of person an opportunity to guilt trip you into making a mistake or let him sabotage your bid.

If he can screw you once, he can screw you twice. He’s gonna be upset whether he finds out before or after – either way he won’t trust you. These jobs come and go so he’s gotta be prepared for that.

I do second the idea that you double check all of the details of what the client wants delivered. There may be hidden costs that you don’t see that your friend was doing. Producer’s don’t always get much credit, but we do occasionally do something of value, besides order lunch. 🙂

[Bob Cole]

Hi Kenzo,

First, forget the illness and the medical bills. That’s your problem, nobody else’s. The fact that your “friend” exploited you when you were ill gives a good clue as to his character, but beyond that it’s irrelevant.

Second, evaluate whether you need this “friend.” If not, then you have another interesting dilemma: do you tell the final client of your involvement?

Because the client is unhappy with her current experience, and because you have been part of the “team,” you probably should tell her that you have supplied the tapes, and that any delay in getting the tapes to her was beyond your control.

You say you are working out of your home — is that going to be a problem for the client? If your producer/friend did supply some value, even if it was only his office, perhaps you could enlist another producer/friend to bid on it with you.

I’m curious about one thing: perhaps she knows that you supplied the tapes, and she’s just trying to cut out the middleman. Perhaps she is a “grinder” as well as your friend. In that case, it’s probably a good idea NOT to go into detail about how much your friend marked up your services — unless you want to keep working for too little money.

Tough call. I’d go for it though.

Bob C

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[Brendan Coots]

Regardless of your friend’s decisions, I personally think it would be unethical for you to bid on the job. If I were you, I would just confront your friend with this information directly and let him explain himself. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

As for your friend’s “ethical lapses” another reason to confront him/her directly is that you don’t know where that money is all going. He may be up to his eyeballs in related expenses that, once explained, rationalize his markup and lack of wiggle room to give you a raise.

Communication is always better than backroom dealings that burn bridges and make you look bad. All you have is your credibility.