editing 24p, 24p adv, and 60i footage

[Captain Mench]

You’re on the right path with everything except the 24pA stuff…

If you’ve already captured that material into FCP with the advanced pulldown removed then it’s running at 23.98. You need to get it back to (for lack of a better term…) 24p mode in 29.97 — more on that later…

If it’s still on tape, you could just capture it as 29.97 (which it is) and leave it at that.

BUT – now you’ll have two different cadences running. NO big deal if it doesn’t really bother you.

Here’s what I suggest.

Lay your 24pA (now 23.98) material onto a timeline and make sure your Playback RT cadence settins are at 3:2 and lay it back off to tape.

Then capture it back in as if you shot it 24p — as 29.97 with a 3.2 cadence.

I THINK Cinema Tools will telecine it for you (add back the 3.2 cadence… but I’m not for sure… but probably will. So, to recap:

if the 24pA material is on your computer as 29.97:
1) Edit in 29.97 and leave it alone
2) Remove the Advanced Pulldown cadence and re-employ a 3.2 cadence and edit freely

if the 24pA material is on yoru computer as 23.98
1) Lay it back to tape using 3.2 cadence
2) Use cinema tools to telecine it to 3.2 cadence and edit freely in 29.97

Remember — 24p material shot on the DVX is 23.98 with 3.2 cadence added making it 29.97.

Yes?

Good luck,

CaptM

[Gary Adcock]

[clairemp] “First, I have shot almost all the footage for my documentary (using a panasonic dvx-100 or 100a) using the standard 24p mode. Before the very first shoot for the film, I was perhaps erroneously advised to “definitely” shoot in 24p-adv. mode, leaving me with 4 hours of footage that I now need to bring in to my 29.97 timeline, “

you do understand that who ever told you to shoot 24pA was correct. – no mushy C frame in the A content

Why, if you shot the footage at 24p why are you not editing in 24p? Chances are at least 1/4 of your edits will be on redundant frames and that will require to hand cut each and everyone of the seqs if your need a 24p final master.

As Capt Mench said – you can always recapture the 24pA footage as 29.97 or you could CT all of the captured footage to match.

[clairemp] “I am also going to use some footage shot on a non-24p DV camera, importing it at 29.97 as well, and while it will clearly not look like the 24p footage, I’m using it as “archival” material so hopefully I will be able to use all of these three kinds of footage on the same 29.97 timeline. Hit me over the head if I’m wrong.”

OK
the majority of your content is 23.98 but you are working at 29.97 just for a small number of broll shots?
Yes someone should wap you in the head = the 24p material would take up 20% less storage to start.

Nattress effects make a grate Standards conversion plug in for FCP ($99) that does a very goods job of 29.97 to 24p that way All the shot footage will match is you work at 24. if you are planning on a broadcast master done in at 29.97 it might be rejected by standards as you will have 2 different types of cadence for the redundant frames from the 24fps content – which can be flagged as drop outs

if it is different than what was expected ( ie: 24p has a cadence of 3:2 vs 2:3:3:2 for the 24pA) standards may bounce it.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Captain Mench]

I’m hoping final will actually be 29.97. If not, this person’s in a world of hurt.

If that indeed’s the case, don’t worry about editing the 3:2 (24p mode) material on redundant frames. Been done that way for years, ever since the advent of Digital editing and telecine’d-film filmed TV shows.

CaptM

[Sean Oneil]

[CaptainMench] “Been done that way for years, ever since the advent of Digital editing and telecine’d-film filmed TV shows.”

Yeah but now people are viewing progressive scan displays at home. Web clips, LCD/DLP/Plasma etc. Unlike CRT displays, digital displays do not draw one line at a time, one field at a time. All interlaced footage is converted to progressive. And bad cadence can defeat consumer equipment’s ability to properly deinterlace. So this is a much bigger concern to worry about nowadays.

Sean

[Claire Panke]

Thank you both for your responses to my post.

The good news is that I have not actually captured any of the footage yet, just did a few tests yesterday, and I apparently still have some decisions to make. I had found info about the plug-in in one of the Ken Stone articles, so I appreciate the added vote for that to help me integrate the standard DV footage in with the stuff shot in 24p.

As suggested, I was planning to take the 24padv footage, capture and place it on a 23.98 timeline (using the “remove advanced pulldown” set-up choice), then output (while I still have this sweet deck) on to a new miniDV tape. I could then re-import it at 29.97 without working with two different cadences in the same timeline. It’s difficult for me to detect any major differences in the motion since I have not been able to get a monitor yet and am only looking on my computer screen.

However, you both bring up something that has me not hitting myself over the head but definitely scratching it; all that I have been reading and researching indicates that if you are not planning to output to film or a 24p DVD, but instead foresee a television broadcast (as was the case with my last film) and perhaps some festival screenings, stick with the 29.97 timeline and use the “DV-NTSC” FCP import setting. I am a little confused with the notion that the stuff I shot in standard 24p (not 2:3:3:2) should go into a 23.98 timeline.

I don’t want to overstay my welcome here, but a little clarification would help and hopefully bring you some good karma 🙂 As I said, I am still at the point where I can do either one, but I don’t anticipate a theatrical release or a need for a film print. However, saving space and improving the final output is of course a consideration. I have about 80 hours shot on standard 24p/F5 mode, and those 4 hours shot in 24padv/F6 mode.

thanks again in advance.

[Captain Mench]

I’m going to go out on a limb here… this isn’t my normal position, but the sheer brawn of the statement might answer your question — but I don’t want it to scare you, because there are worse things in this world than worrying about frame rates.

here goes:

WHY on earth would you EVER want to film with 24 ANYTHING if you are 99% sure you won’t go to film or DVD??!!! That’s just silly. 24p is a film LOOK that serves NO purpose at all to what you can accomplish with 30 frames per second. Then you run into all sorts of redundant frame editing messes and it’s just not going to work. Shoot 30p only because we edit for the 100 people who have the most expensive sets and who won’t want to see any interlacing on their TVs or they’ll call their cable provider and then that cable exec will call me and it’s all down hill.”

Look…

Edit yourself two 2 minute shorts — one with the 24pA material in 23.98 and one with the 24p material cut however you want in a 29.97 timeline. Lay both to tape (making sure you select the 3.2 cadence for the 23.98 transfer back) and go to best buy with a deck or camera and play back the tape on a 50 plus inch plasma whatever — make sure it’s 1080p for goodness sakes!!

See if you like or care which is best.

It’s going to be up to you. But I don’t think you’ll notice much difference. My vote is to convert the 24pA material to 24p mode material and edit it all in a 29.97 timeline. Ideal? No… will it save you time and headache YES!

CaptM

[Gary Adcock]

[clairemp] ” I am a little confused with the notion that the stuff I shot in standard 24p (not 2:3:3:2) should go into a 23.98 timeline. “

the only difference between 24p and 24pA is the cadence of the redundant frames – if you have captured both at 29.97 you can use the arrow key to go frame by frame through the content to see the “cadence” of these frames.

From the post side 24p needs to go thru the manual process of removing these frames whereas the 24pA it can be done automatically on import. both formats are recorded to tape at 29.97

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

[Sean Oneil]

[CaptainMench] “WHY on earth would you EVER want to film with 24 ANYTHING if you are 99% sure you won’t go to film or DVD??!!! That’s just silly. 24p is a film LOOK that serves NO purpose at all to what you can accomplish with 30 frames per second.”

??? Are you serious? Footage shot at 24 has a completely different look than footage shot at 30. Doesn’t matter if it’s converted to 60i via pulldown and brodcast on TV. It still has a completely distinct cinematic look, whereas stuff shot at 30fps looks more like sitcom/soap opera.

[CaptainMench] “Shoot 30p only because we edit for the 100 people who have the most expensive sets and who won’t want to see any interlacing on their TVs or they’ll call their cable provider and then that cable exec will call me and it’s all down hill.””

That’s why its always better to capture and edit 24p footage at 24p (23.98). You’re probably getting calls like that because of your previous statement. People have been editing pulldown footage w/o regard to cadence since the advent of digital video editing. Myself included. But as of the past couple years, progressive displays are the norm for consumers. So you will get calls like that and that’s why I think its important for people to change their workflow standards when working with 24fps material. Capturing and editing 23.98 footage at 23.98 is the simplest solution.

Sean

[Captain Mench]

HAHAHA!!! — And here I thought YOU were serious!!

Read my post, dude.

CaptM

[Shane Ross]

[Sean ONeil] “??? Are you serious? Footage shot at 24 has a completely different look than footage shot at 30. Doesn’t matter if it’s converted to 60i via pulldown and brodcast on TV. It still has a completely distinct cinematic look, whereas stuff shot at 30fps looks more like sitcom/soap opera.”

You aren’t paying attention Sean. 24P is recorded to tape at 29.97fps. It has the LOOK of a film cadence, while remaining in the 29.97 frame rate of video. It doesn’t look like 30i of the OLD Soap Operas (they all now go thru a film look process to look less video, BTW).

[Sean ONeil] ”
That’s why its always better to capture and edit 24p footage at 24p (23.98).”

Wrong. Not if you are going to output back to SD tape. What would be the point? Tape runs at 29.97, so why would you capture and edit at 23.98, only to go back to 29.97? What is the possible benefit?

I have worked on several TV shows that were shot on super 16mm, telecined to digibeta…24fps recorded to tape at 29.97 using the 3:2 pulldown. Now, when we edited, we edited at 29.97fps. When we onlined the show we onlined at 29.97fps. Not once did we capture and edit at 23.98. There was no point.

But, if you shoot on HD or telecine film to HD at 23.98, then make DVCAM downconverts, then yes, there is a reason to edit 23.98, as the master is 23.98. But, if you shot 24P on DVCAM, your master is 29.97, to edit 29.97.

[Sean ONeil] “People have been editing pulldown footage w/o regard to cadence since the advent of digital video editing. Myself included. But as of the past couple years, progressive displays are the norm for consumers. So you will get calls like that and that’s why I think its important for people to change their workflow standards when working with 24fps material. Capturing and editing 23.98 footage at 23.98 is the simplest solution.”

People have been shooting 24P and 24PA footage and editing it in a variety of ways without taking the time to research and test their workflows. They just choose that setting because they want the “film look.” In fact, more that once I have seen people who captured the footage at 24fps…TRUE 24fps…editing that and then trying to either online that or get that back to tape. You can’t…it is 24fps. But they didn’t understand, they just wanted the film look. These are cases of looking before you leap.

If you are going to shoot on DVCAM tape, and end up with a DVCAM master or other SD tape master (digibeta), then shoot and edit 29.97. Shoot 24P or 30P if you want the film look. I fail to see any benefit to shooting and editing 24PA for outputting to tape.

If you plan to master to DVD, or to high end HD like HDCAM or D5, or planning a film out, then shooting and editing 24PA as 23.98 is the way to go.

This is the general rule, and what I tell people who are inexperienced with this. BUT, if working 23.98 works for you, by all means, do it that way. Some people do and it works. But many are too inexperienced and make mistakes somewhere in the process.

Shane

Littlefrog Post
http://www.lfhd.net