DVCPRO HD Timeline / Work Flow Questions

[Shane Ross]

You can capture 59.94, 29.97 and 23.98 from the 1200HD deck via firewire. I have done all frame rates. I am currently editing a show that was shot 720p24 so I have captured, and will continue capturing, footage at 23.98. Some shots are 60p at 59.94, but those are intended for slo-motion via the DVCPRO HD Frame Rate Converter. But, if I want to use those in my 23.98 timeline at normal motion, and convert to 23.98, I simply drop into the timeline and render, or use the Standards Converter from http://www.nattress.com and convert it that way. The Nattress filter provides smoother results.

You can edit 59.94 or 23.98 with no problems. The reason we are going 23.98 is for the “film look,” and for the low amount of drive space it requires. I am doing all this using two G-Raid 500GB drives using the FW800 port.

YOu don’t need to go in SDI to get all the frame rates.

I am chronicling my experiences and workflow for this at http://www.lfhd.net.

Shane Ross
Alokut Productions
http://www.lfhd.net

[Walter Biscardi]

[williamsdp] “I’m looking for input on different HD timeline/editing setting options (sequence settings, set-up configurations, etc) for DVCPRO HD with FCP (v5.0.3)… workflows for HD-SDI input, not… via firewire through the 1200 HD deck, which (I’m pretty sure) where the only option is 720p/24).”

Nope, you can capture pretty much at any frame rate from Firewire, though 24, 30 and 60 are standard.

[williamsdp] “1). Can I edit the project in 59.94 if I have the storage space, (which I do for a project of this size) or is that crazy and should I remove the duplicate frames on input and just edit in the 23.98 timeline?”

I do this all the time. duplicate frames are not an issue.

[williamsdp] “2). Advantages / disadvantages? The output will only be SD DVD’s, and no HD printed out to tape, so I would think that 23.98 would be better?”

Not really sure why you think 23.98 would be better. The SD DVD will be 29.97 which matches a 59.94 DVCPro HD timeline.

[williamsdp] “3). Can you edit an HD project entirely in the 59.94 timeline? What happens to a 23.98 timeline if it needs to go back out to DVCPRO HD tape (59.94), and not to a D5 deck (23.98)?”

If you turn on the User Bits on the 1200A you can flag the 23.98 frames. The deck always records at 59.94, but you can extract the 23.98 if you turn on the User Bits.

If you have a 1200A, read the manual, all kinds of good information in there. I refer to mine all the time.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Matthew Williams]

Thanks everyone for the input… let me get more specific, as I might not have been as clear as I should have been. Since I don’t have the 1200a HD deck, (and most of the workflow suggestions out there are based on that deck) and I know I don’t need that deck, my HD 130 deck is fine, but HD-SDI is the way I can bring in material through my Black Magic Card. From my knowledge and both responses so far, it’s clear that one can import footage in @ 23.98, 29.97 or 59.94 with either deck.

I always shoot @ 23.98 (24) on the Varicam for dramatic material… (unless it’s off speed footage) and I’ve been doing this for 4 years, so I’m already getting the “24 frame film look” from the footage. Since (so far my FCP experience has only involved bringing in off-speed footage for frame rate converting, and all that has been done @ 59.94 (again tape speed and timeline setting). What I’m asking is purely post related… what are the advantages of bringing the material in @ 23.98 vs. 59.94 (even though I shot @ 23.98 (24)). (Varicam on-board deck is set @ 59.94). Does it matter if I edit in a 23.98 timeline or a 59.94 timeline (the footage looks the same)… again this is purely a post question… not how to shoot the footage.

Here’s the question… If I’m not printing out to tape (DVCPRO HD only)… does 23.98 or 59.94 matter in any way? If I do print the sequence out to tape (DVCPRO HD), and want to go back to my HD 130 deck (which only records @ 59.94) do I have to edit in a 59.94 sequence (like I do for frame rate converting)… or can I still edit in a 23.98 sequence?

Thanks in advance for your time and for sharing your editing knowledge… Matt

(FYI… some background so you’ll know where I’m coming from… I am not new at HD production… and since all I do is shoot, (film DP 15 years, Varicam 4 years), I don’t spend a lot of time editing except for my reels. (When I’m involved in post for HD jobs I am there only for the color correction, not the editing, and most have been on an Avid anyway). So this is a small HD job for my own HD reel… nothing else… on my own system. I have shot over 50 HD commercial spots to date (including the HVX-200 trailer for Panasonic (which was finished in HD but I wasn’t involved in the on-line) and all others have been finished in SD (so I have the HD portable deck so anyone who wants to use my services doesn’t have to have the HD deck on the post end). I’ve also done 3 HD features… all to 35mm film out via SD off-line / HD Smoke on-line / 23.98 / D5, etc) and I understand all of those work flows).

Matthew Williams
Film / HD Director of Photography
http://www.williamsdp.com

[Walter Biscardi]

[williamsdp] “Here’s the question… If I’m not printing out to tape (DVCPRO HD only)… does 23.98 or 59.94 matter in any way? If I do print the sequence out to tape (DVCPRO HD), and want to go back to my HD 130 deck (which only records @ 59.94) do I have to edit in a 59.94 sequence (like I do for frame rate converting)… or can I still edit in a 23.98 sequence?”

For anything that is going to end up at 29.97, I prefer to stay in 59.94 for my entire edit so I can truly see what it will look like. All of my HD shows end up in 29.97 HDCAM so we simply edit in a 59.94 timeline to keep everything in the same time frame.

Does the 130 flag the 23.98 frames or does it only record 59.94 with no User Bits? The 1200A also only records at 59.94 but it can flag the 24 frames with User Bits turned on for recapture at a later date.

Really since you only shot 23.98 it’s really your choice as to which timeline to edit with. Either way will work fine within FCP, the only question is how it will translate to the SD MPEG-2 for DVD.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Craig Anderson]

If you do not plan on going out to tape, I would strongly consider editing at 23.98 for a few reasons. Your disk space and render times will be shorter, as you have fewer frames to process, and you won’t be losing any information, as the extra frames are simply duplicates.
Secondly, if you are going to an SD DVD with it, you may find you get a better picture with 23.98 footage, since your bitrate can go up as your frame rate goes down. I believe that the DVD standard allows for 24 fps footage, and the set top player will pull that footage down itself for playback on 29.97 sets (correct me if I’m wrong here).

Craig

[Matthew Williams]

[walter biscardi] “Does the 130 flag the 23.98 frames or does it only record 59.94 with no User Bits? The 1200A also only records at 59.94 but it can flag the 24 frames with User Bits turned on for recapture at a later date.”

Walter…

I checked with my contacts at Panasonic and they told me that both machines (AJ-HD1200a or the AJ-HD130) will record and playback whatever is fed to them. That is, if you playback a tape recorded on the Varicam with flags, they both will play back the flags as they are part of the user bits. The VTR’s do not generate flags in the user bits, only record and play them back from a source, either tape or camera.

Matt

Matthew Williams
Film / HD Director of Photography
http://www.williamsdp.com

[Gary Adcock]

[walter biscardi] “Does the 130 flag the 23.98 frames or does it only record 59.94 with no User Bits? The 1200A also only records at 59.94 but it can flag the 24 frames with User Bits turned on for recapture at a later date.”

The 130 flags frames just like all the rest of the decks do. UB is kept in the RP188 TC stream.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Gary Adcock]

[williamsdp] “I checked with my contacts at Panasonic and they told me that both machines (AJ-HD1200a or the AJ-HD130) will record and playback whatever is fed to them. That is, if you playback a tape recorded on the Varicam with flags, they both will play back the flags as they are part of the user bits.”

Correct but note that tapes recorded in the 1200 will not playback in the 130. BUT tapes recorded from the 130 will play in the 1200. This is due to the change in recording head between the units.

The panasonic decks can record flags generated from NLEs that indicate the editing timebase (23.98 29.97, 59.94) but not any other flags.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA