DV Rack and Weddings/Events

[Peter Ralph]

[Doug Graham] “Yes, an NTSC CRT monitor IS the best way to actually see the image”

Doug – was that a typo – I think you meant NTSC monitor, not “NTSC CRT” monitor?

[Doug Graham]

No, I meant “NTSC CRT”, just to be sure we were talking about a monitor that was displaying an NTSC signal and using a set of electron guns to do it. A standard TV set is a “CRT”, and so is one of those boxy glass-fronted computer monitors.

Regards,
Doug Graham

[Bouncing Account needs new email address]

Hi Peter,

You keep trying to say that none of us could be speaking “well” of a “CRT” monitor.

Can you explain why you don’t think that’s a possibility?

A CRT is STILL the most accurate, and most economical way to view SD video.
And for HD, an HD CRT can provide the highest possible resolution as well.

CRTs are still the main “critical” monitors in thousands of professional post suites.

There are plenty of us who still use CRTs as computer monitors as well.
I’ve spent too many hours with the teeny-tiny pixel squares cutting thru the typeface on LCD computer monitors (can you say FCP Browser Type?).

Give me the (now) less expensive 21″ CRTs and I’m just fine.

Maybe someday a good LCD or Plasma monitor (costing under $3000) will display camera output as accurately as a good CRT monitor (costing under $800), but that day is not yet here.

These are my opinions.
Anyone can disagree, of course, but please explain WHY.

[Colvin Eccleston]

I have been using DVRack as part of my workflow with my Z1 since I got it. It is easy enough to set up a laptop to match your camera and studio equipment so you get consistent results, whether in the studio or in the field. Like someone else said, know your equipment, know your results. I find DVRack invaluable for setting up the different picture profiles on the Z1 and the disk capture takes away the stress of tape drop outs. I wouldn’t go back to not using it.

[Pat Kingery]

Doug, which type of monitor do you recommend for feedback at a shoot:

1. a CRT monitor, aka the old style (pre-LCD) computer monitor
2 an NTSC monitor, aka a field or production monitor such as the SONY PVM series.
3. any monitor that uses a Cathode Ray Tube (CRT), i.e. either 1 or 2 above – makes no difference which

Just trying to clarify things here, I know you have a real good handle on the technical side of things.

[Doug Graham]

The Sony PVM.

I see that I’ve gotten some people confused with my terminology. 🙂

A “CRT” monitor is any monitor that uses a cathode ray tube to shoot a beam of electrons at a phosphor screen. CRT technology is found in computer monitors, television monitors, and television receivers (a receiver is just a monitor with a tuner for receiving signals off the air or via cable). However, the computer CRT monitor differs from a TV in the way the beam is scanned; it’s progressive for the computer monitor, but interlaced for the TV. Also, the gamma curve for computer monitors is different than for TVs.

An NTSC monitor is any television monitor that displays the NTSC television signal (as opposed to PAL or SECAM). It could be a CRT device or an LCD panel or a projector. So, a Sony PVM monitor would be an “NTSC CRT”.

Regards,
Doug Graham

[Peter Ralph]

As Doug explains above many televisions, production monitors, waveform monitors and vectorscopes can be described as “CRT monitors”. I assume you are using the term CRT to refer to the typical (pre-lcd) computer monitor?

I prefer NTSC monitors to verify color, gamma, exposure and LCD monitors for just about everything else. They are lighter, brighter (easier on the eyes), and take up less space than CRTS. Most people it seems agree with my assessment and are prepared to pay a hugh premium for LCD monitors. IMHO – the only good thing about CRT monitors is that they are cheap.

If you prefer CRTs – good for you – I don’t know any pros who wouldn’t prefer to work with Apple cinema displays – but being in a minority doesn’t make you wrong. Being different is good – why not give us a link to your website?

[Bouncing Account needs new email address]

[Peter Ralph] “I assume you are using the term CRT to refer to the typical (pre-lcd) computer monitor? “

Well, yes I am.
CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) is the only term I know of to describe “standard” TV sets and other image displays that are still in use by the billions around the globe.

[Peter Ralph] “I prefer NTSC monitors to verify color, gamma, exposure and LCD monitors for just about everything else.”

TO say you” prefer NTSC monitors” is like saying, for transportation you prefer “Unleaded”.

That is just TYPE of fuel what you “PUT INTO” a unit. The unit (in this case) could be a 4-cylinder, 6-cylinder, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, a sedan, a van, a pickup, a motorcycle, etc.

Similarly, (if you allow the stretch) “NTSC” is a video SYSTEM or TYPE (its what you “PUT INTO” a monitor).
It does not refer (necessarily) specifically to a TYPE of monitor DISPLAY.
Although monitors CAN be described as being “NTSC”, either exclusively or as just ONE of several of their display modes (PAL, SECAM, RGB, etc.)

In North America, we do use the NTSC system (SD) and so anything we shoot on NTSC cameras MUST be monitored on NTSC-capable monitors (or via a computer with transcoding).

All that is to say that when we (any of us) talk (at length) about monitors we need to be more specific than just “NTSC”.
So, when I say “NTSC CRT” (as Doug reiterated) I am being very SPECIFIC as to MEAN an “NTSC monitor with a Cathode Ray Tube” display.

The reason I am so specific is that… NTSC “LCD” monitors have very limited “sweet” angles so that if you are at a slightly “wrong” angle you can make a very (VERY) “wrong” iris decision.
We have all seen this using the little swing-out LCD’s on camcorders… they might give us a GREAT image as we shoot head-on, but if we raise or lower the camera (or pan) the image will simply CHANGE in levels… if we were to judge the IRIS based on this LCD, we could suffer dire consequences.

Also, the color renditions are different between CRT and LCD (you can’t really judge true chroma levels or temperatures).

The contrast “steps” (degrees of full-black to full-white) are very different (LCDs are quite limited) and that can give you the wrong impression of whether the blacks are too high or low (as well as incorrect readings on white-clipping areas).

Unlike NTSC CRT monitors, to actually GET an analog (composite, RGB, Component or S-video) NTSC image to DISPLAY on a digital LCD, the image must be digitally converted (one could say “compressed”) into the proper number of pixels and “routed” digitally to the proper LCD pixels. For most (“affordable”) LCD monitors, this creates many digital artifacts that are evident in close examination of the LCD screen.

Back to our camcorder “swing-out screen” example… the images on that LCD screen look GREAT even on a $300 home video camera at an in-store demo rack.
But just look at the difference if you switch it onto the $200 “CRT” TV/Monitor they have in the same display… the video noise, exposure and color anomalies, and resolution limitations quickly become apparent.

So…
When monitoring NTSC images, CRTs offer the truest, widest-range, most-accurate, and artifact-free image (as well as lower cost).
Those are the facts as they are today and likely for a while to come.

PLEASE DON’T THINK THAT I DON’T LIKE NEW TECHNOLOGY.
(I’m not an “digital-hater” with only LP’s in my music library.)
I have been scouting for a reasonably-priced 13″ or 19″ LCD to use for my location work, but when compared side-by-side to a similarly-sized calibrated CRT, the images simply do not MATCH (and that can only mean the LCD is largely INACCURATE).

I would LOVE to be able to TRUST an LCD monitor for my (I can’t stress this enough) LIVE, REAL-TIME, ONE-CHANCE-ONLY, constantly-changing light-level and distance form camera STAGE-EVENTS (very similar, in fact to a WEDDING).
Because LCD monitors are much more convenient than bulky CRTs.
But Waveform monitors and Vectorscopes aside, just by looking at the image on my properly calibrated NTSC “CRT” monitor (regardless of my viewing angle) I can TRUST that is EXACTLY the image that I’m recording.
And that kind of assurance can help me capture the best images I can.

And this was the point I tried to make at the very beginning of this thread.

(Sorry for the length. I’m just trying to better-explain my position.)

[Peter Ralph]

[Matte] “TO say you” prefer NTSC monitors” is like saying, for transportation you prefer “Unleaded”.
“

Matte – I work in the video industry in the US – we use the term “NTSC monitor” in what you may argue is an “inaccurate” way – so be it. But we all use the term in that way – there is no confusion. Please go to your video supplier and ask or search for an NTSC monitor to confirm this fact.

[Peter Ralph]

I agree that CRT (computer) monitors do have a place in many studios, but they cannot replace an NTSC CRT monitor. In the absence of an NTSC CRT monitor I could imagine taking one on location, but I have never done so, and in fact never even seen one on a location shoot.