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Definition of a 1080p ccd
Definition of progressive has been made very unclear by marketing of interlace cameras that have processing of the interlace image to create a progressive frame.
Someone correc tme if I’m wrong but as I see it
All ccds are progressive at the ccd “face”
Each field of an interlace frame was once a full frame with double the vertical number of lines.
50i or 60i was once 50p or 60p at the ccd.
So a 50i or 60i image/signal is created from 2 x progressivly exposed frames.
Put another way, interlace is made from processing alternate lines of 2 x progressive frames taken at intervals.A “true” 25p or 30p frame comprises all of the vertical lines from a single exposure/readout of the ccd.
Ditto 720 60p.
The HDC 1500, Genesis and D20 are cameras that do “true” 1080 60p. (as I understand it)Sony are calling their new HDCAM XD a progressive camcorder. But the progressive picture is made after the interlace processing!
How will Panasonic use the the p word in relation to the 200?
Mike Brennan
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16 Replies
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Hi,
>Definition of progressive has been made very unclear by marketing of interlace cameras that have processing of the interlace image to create a progressive frame.
You are correct, but frankly it isn’t Panasonic that has marketed that confusion.
>Someone correct me if I’m wrong but as I see it All ccds are progressive at the ccd “face”
No not all CCDs are progressive at the face. Some are interlace, like those on the Z1 camera are interlace. Some chips do not have the ability to light up the entire surface,and clock the output at a progressive rate. Some do. Some can only “take” a picture of half the info. Interlace chips can only do interlace and interpolate to progressive. A progressive chip is more expensive and can take in the entire picture and clock it out at 60 frames.
>A “true” 25p or 30p frame comprises all of the vertical lines from a single exposure/readout of the ccd. Ditto 720 60p. The HDC 1500, Genesis and D20 are cameras that do “true” 1080 60p. (as I understand it)
Actually we can add to that list of cameras with real progresssive imagers starting with the DVX100 series of cameras, in its progressive modes, the SDX900,the SPX800, and the VariCam.
>Sony are calling their new HDCAM XD a progressive camcorder. But the progressive picture is made after the interlace processing!
Well then this is the source of confusion. Calling a camera progressive when it starts as an interlace picture is confusing. And Canon is calling their HDV camera a 24F camera 24F because they know the difference and are being truthful about the engineering. Progressive capture is a marketing hot button, it really means something and to use it on a product that isn’t really, seems like a deceptive practice. When Panasonic uses it, it is what were are doing.
>How will Panasonic use the the p word in relation to the 200?
The camera starts with a progressive chip, a 1080/60P chip. In its 24P or 30P modes, or its variable frame modes, it will change to that time base for capture, but it starts as a progressive chip capture and then makes the conversion, cross conversion or down conversion from there. It is a true progressive chip set and will make progressive pictures, not marketing, but rather, engineering.
Hope this helps,
Jan
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems -
Hi,
>Definition of progressive has been made very unclear by marketing of interlace cameras that have processing of the interlace image to create a progressive frame.
>You are correct, but frankly it isn’t Panasonic that has marketed that confusion.
Yes, Sony has done this and it has muddied the water.>Someone correct me if I’m wrong but as I see it All ccds are progressive at the ccd “face”
JAN
>No not all CCDs are progressive at the face.I understand that the TV industry have used the progressive word but in light of the inappropriate use of the word the Sony ad men are not incorrect, as all ccds are progressive at the face.
>Some are interlace, like those on the Z1 camera are interlace.
The output is interlace for sure but at the face they are progressive. So it is impossible to stop the use of this term in the description of cameras.
>Some chips do not have the ability to light up the entire surface,and clock the output at a progressive rate.Progressive clocking defines the description.
>Some do. Some can only “take” a picture of half the info. Interlace chips can only do interlace and interpolate to progressive. A progressive chip is more expensive and can take in the entire picture and clock it out at 60 frames.
Yes we need to use a phrase that desribes the above “progressive clocking chip” would exclude Z1s?
Mike
>A “true” 25p or 30p frame comprises all of the vertical lines from a single exposure/readout of the ccd. Ditto 720 60p. The HDC 1500, Genesis and D20 are cameras that do “true” 1080 60p. (as I understand it)Jan
>Actually we can add to that list of cameras with real progresssive imagers starting with the DVX100 series of cameras, in its progressive modes, the SDX900,the SPX800, and the VariCam.Sure they are progressive, my list is refering to HD cameras capable of 1080 60p output.
Mike
>Sony are calling their new HDCAM XD a progressive camcorder. But the progressive picture is made after the interlace processing!Jan
>Well then this is the source of confusion. Calling a camera progressive when it starts as an interlace picture is confusing. And Canon is calling their HDV camera a 24F camera 24F because they know the difference and are being truthful about the engineering. Progressive capture is a marketing hot button, it really means something and to use it on a product that isn’t really, seems like a deceptive practice. When Panasonic uses it, it is what were are doing.>How will Panasonic use the the p word in relation to the 200?
Jan
>The camera starts with a progressive chip, a 1080/60P chip. In its 24P or 30P modes, or its variable frame modes, it will change to that time base for capture, but it starts as a progressive chip capture and then makes the conversion, cross conversion or down conversion from there. It is a true progressive chip set and will make progressive pictures, not marketing, but rather, engineering.The only mainstream cameras that fall into a 1920×1080 60p capable category are Genesis, D20 and HDC1500 so congratulations are in order for doing true 25p/30p let alone 60p at this price point.
To be clear, you are saying the ccd on the 200 can output true 1920×1080 60p ie where all 1080 lines are clocked from the ccd well at a rate of 60 frames per sec?
To ask the question another way, does the 200 need 60 seperate exposures of the ccd to make a 30p frame? or only 30 seperate exposures of the ccd?
To be clear I am saying that since all ccds are inherently progressive. ie Light hits all the pixels and all pixels are dumped to the well in an instant we need to refine the term.
The phrase, “True progressive clocking” may be best description?
Mike Brennan
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Mike, if as you say all ccds are inherently progressive because light does not fall on them in an interlaced manner, and that some ccds can only read out in interlaced manner, clocked at an interlaced rate, and some can only read out progressive, being clocked at a progressive rate, then:
Progressive ccd means you can areas out the whole frame at once, where each pixel represents one instant of time, and all pixels are read at once
Interlaced ccd means the above does NOT happen.
I don’t see any condusion between real progressive and interlaced and fake progressive. I think everyone knows that the Z1 is an interlaced camera with interlaced chips and rather poor faked progressive modes.
I think the HVX200, when recording 24p takes 24 progressive images a second from the CCD, ie, it’s clocked at 24fp. Similarly for 30p. For 60i, I think it gets clocked at 60p and the 2 frames are filtered and melded together to create one interlaced frame. Jan, can interlace filtering be turned on or off? If it could be turned off, it would give us more info slowmo or interpolating back to 60p.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
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[Michael Brennan] “>.
I understand that the TV industry have used the progressive word but in light of the inappropriate use of the word the Sony ad men are not incorrect, as all ccds are progressive at the face.”
Well according to the engineers that I know, some chips cannot take the full picture as it does not have the ability to look at the entire picture, only half of the array can light up. The words are used to describe what is happening and what can come off of the chip set. If it cannot produce that progressive capture at the output, it should not be marketed as progressive. Otherwise then all chips could be marketed as progressive and the poor customer would be left in a confusing mess. Which one really is progressive? No the terminology should reflect what the chip set is able to deliver.
[Michael Brennan] “>.>Progressive clocking defines the description. Yes we need to use a phrase that desribes the above “progressive clocking chip” would exclude Z1s?”
No there are interlace chips and there are progressive ones.
[Michael Brennan] “>.To be clear, you are saying the ccd on the 200 can output true 1920×1080 60p ie where all 1080 lines are clocked from the ccd well at a rate of 60 frames per sec?”
The signal that is captured from the CCD is a 1080P signal. The CCD is an analog device. There is not a line for line readout in any CCD camera. The CCDs on the HVX200 are not 1080 X 1920, the performance in low light would be unacceptavble. However the output is captured at 1920X1080 and then is converted to the format that is needed, like 1080i or 720P or SD. The 1080P signal only gets recorded in the 2 1080P progressive formats of 24P and 30P and these are segmented frames in a respective pulldown to 1080i. All of this happens before compression and subsampling to bring the signal to DVCPRO HD.
[Michael Brennan] “>.To be clear I am saying that since all ccds are inherently progressive. ie Light hits all the pixels and all pixels are dumped to the well in an instant we need to refine the term.”
The problem is that there are interlace chips and progressive ones and you will have a very difficult time convincing the engineers otherwise. And frankly the convention of saying that the chip is progressive, has in the past and should for the future, defines a CCD that is able to capture and output a full progressive picture. An interlace CCD is one that cannot.
Best,
Jan
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems -
Hi Jan,
The news about this camera keeps getting better and better. Is there any possiblity that we will be able to switch the analog outputs can be switched to RGB output?
Thanks,
Gary -
>I don’t see any condusion between real progressive and interlaced and fake progressive. I think everyone knows that the Z1 is an interlaced camera with interlaced chips and rather poor faked progressive modes.
Graeme,
The marketing adapts.
The market place think that the X300 is a progressive camera.The HDCAM XD literature says it is “records progressive” and that it is a “progressive camcorder”.
I can see Sony commng out with “True Progressive Recording” for HDCAM XD. Sure it does but derived from a interlace image.Remember when Panasonic and Sony marketing made everyone believe that HDCAM and DVCPRO HD recorded 1920×1080 and 1220×720 pixels respectively?
I’m hoping that Panasonic can communicate very clearly what is happening in the new camera, from the outset, simply using the word progressive to describe its workings leaves a lot to be desired, they’ll sell more cameras if they get it right!
Mike Brennan
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>No there are interlace chips and there are progressive ones.
Yes.
My point is that use of the term progressive for a camera with interlace chip is not illegal as there is marketing and engineering definitions of the word that are open to embellishment.A savvy buyer should be circumspect when any manufacturer users the term progressive
and manufacturers with true progressive clocked ccds should shout the loudest!Mike Brennan
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Michael Brennan] “>.To be clear, you are saying the ccd on the 200 can output true 1920×1080 60p ie where all 1080 lines are clocked from the ccd well at a rate of 60 frames per sec?”
Jan
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Michael Brennan] “>.To be clear, you are saying the ccd on the 200 can output true 1920×1080 60p ie where all 1080 lines are clocked from the ccd well at a rate of 60 frames per sec?”
Jan
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Michael,
to safe yourself some time copying and pasting,use keys Ctrl and Q.
regards-jiri vrozina
p.s. So Sony Cine Alta is taking advantage of only 1.1 milion pixels instead of 2.2?
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