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client not paying – need advice!
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[Chuck Green] “in your initial discussions you say the possible price range will be $ 4,000 to $ 7,000, they will likely be holding $ 4,000 in their minds from that moment on, while you might be thinking $ 7,000, whether the scope of work stays the same or expands.”
THIS is one of the best points in this whole discussion.
Burn it onto the inside of your eyelids so you do not forget it in your next negotiation with a new client, DeAnna.
DeAnna: Some of the people telling you all this great advice about going to court and legal rights, yada, yada, yada, are well, I hate to say it, not giving you practical business advice. In fact, if I were to qualify some of it, I’d place it in the category of cow manure: yes, it’s warm to the touch when your eyes are closed but to those whose eyes are open, they are less apt to touch it — not to mention that it has a not-so-subtle and less-than-piquant aromasity (I love to make up words) all its own.
Why do I say that? Because some very smart people on this forum have been telling you that you are about to trade $450 for A LOT MORE COSTS in wasted time, filing fees, travel, time taken away from your business that you could be working on productive work, etc., etc., — and these costs are far more than you ever stand to make.
THAT is bad business. Repeat those words after me: Bad business.
The Legendary Bob Zelin™ hasn’t logged in to this thread to give his own Zelinized™ bit of advice to you, so I will do my humble best to fill in for him during his absence: Only a rotten businessperson trades a few hundred bucks for destructive behavior that is quite likely to cost them far more than they will ever get out of what they are doing. Get out of business now, he’d say. So I am saying it to you: if you can’t see that the real value of $450 is far less than the cost of pursuing that $450 (especially in light of what it’s already cost you so far), then you need to quit now. Your business will fail. You cannot run a business because your judgment is not sound.
Yes, Brendan Coots C&D order is tempting and if left there, it is not a bad play. Use it, there is indeed some power in it — and most importantly, if left there, it won’t take you a lot of time. But all this court crap is senseless and anyone here who would recommend that you fight a small claims court case for money like this is chasing chump-change and isn’t really in business anyway and their advise is not something I’d follow across the street.
There, Bob Zelin will hopefully be proud of me.
Ron Lindeboom
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DeAnna,
After years of work and being on both sides of the cash flow crunch, I have a somewhat different perspective on your problem.
Pursue business where there is real opportunity.
Your client is a client, no matter how little money they have.
Clients are rare and extremely valuable. Especially when you are just starting.
In your shoes I would do everything I could to make their business a success, that’s really why they hired you. If your video is well produced and helps your client’s business, then they will be able to pay you sooner. Happy clients refer you to other clients, they refer you to other clients, soon you’ll move up the ladder to higher profile, and more profitable projects.
This is a very personal business and people who care about their client’s needs and learn to advance their client’s needs prosper. In this case it’s not about the remaining balance of $460. It’s about having a successful project that you can point to, and then get the next one. Rather than trying to lock up the materials and make sure that the client can’t benefit from them, I would use my energy to get the video linked far and wide and seen by your client’s potential customers (as well as yours). Have them write you a referral letter and pledge to make introductions to 3 other potential clients. Do an on camera interview with them talking about your professionalism and quality of work and post the video on your website or blog.
Move on to the next opportunity. Then every month send a bill in a physical letter reflecting payments to date and balance owed. You will be paid. And you will get that next, better job…..
Good luck!
Paul Lundahl
creative director
eMotion studios
https://www.emotionstudios.com -
1. Hop in your car.
2. Drive to where she is.
3. Collect your money.
4. Go to Chilis and eata bigass burger or some nachos.
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Reading all the responses, you certainly have a lot of choices to choose from. from my perspective, Small Claims court is just another way to lose an additional few thousand dollars. If you don’t think that the time that you will spend chasing this client into SCC then you really don’t belong in business in the first place. More importantly, what makes you think that you’ll win? SCC is NOTORIOUS for delivering bad decisions and if your client has a more compelling story than yours, or a judge that is incompetent, you could find that YOU OWE HER. Don’t laugh, it has happened more times that you could imagine.
Some of the suggestions that I like are burning timecode into unfinished projects (we place a “NOT FOR BROADCAST” overlay on the piece dead center in the frame which appears for 5 seconds periodically through the piece). It is dead center so that the footage cannot be re-edited and masked out. Get it? Yes, there are clients out there that will do that.
The other thing is to be very clear on your fees, religious in requiring payment and just as dutiful in delivering content when promised. NO one likes to get stiffed for $500.00. I don’t like to get stiffed for $50.00 but it still happens from time to time. At the first point when a payment is missed, I stop all work on the project, inform the client that all work has been stopped and will not resume until payment has been made. I NEVER EVER deliver a finished project unless I am paid in full.
You may wind up being paid for this project, but it won’t feel like you did. If I borrow $100.00 from you and pay you a dollar here and a dollar there, it won’t feel like you paid me back. As unpalatable as it may be, you just might have to chalk this one up to experience and make sure that you don’t put yourself into this trick bag in the future.
Jim Harvey
JHV Digital -
Paul, you must live in a very nice town.
Jim Harvey
JHV Digital -
[Jim Harvey] “I NEVER EVER deliver a finished project unless I am paid in full.”
Should we infer from this that you live in a not so nice town, Jim?
Am I in a distinct minority, working for many of the same people over and over again? Of course strangers and first timers put down an initial payment and some are not allowed to walk with finished work until payment has been made, but in my case that’s a tiny fraction of the overall business. It’s also why our work is almost 100% B-2-B and with established, credit-worthy companies.
Look, I feel for DeAnna and her situation. In my case something very similar happened when I was just starting out and a lawyer friend had to actually file papers before “an upright member of the local business community” (Car Dealer) would pay me $350. That’s why I gave the advice I did, because I know this game from personal experience. It’s also how I know that moving on is, in the long run, far more productive than hours and hours and hours of negative energy.
[Paul Lundahl] “In your shoes I would do everything I could to make their business a success… then they will be able to pay you sooner.”
While I admire Paul’s upbeat approach to this and agree with his philosophy of happy clients bringing in more happy clients, DeAnna’s situation seems to have moved well past the point where that’s an option. Good stuff to focus on in the future, but probably not now with this client.
DeAnna, do what you feel you’ve gotta do, be it a cease letter or whatever. Then put it out of your mind and immerse yourself in getting the next project. It beats the hell out of sitting around stewing about the one that’s gone bad.
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There are several national collection agencies that you can google for on-line, they take a cut of the take but don’t charge you anything. And if they fail to collect there is no charge. You supply all the clients info, phone numbers, etc. and they take it from there. They treat these much the way small claims court does, it is a differing of opinion. They don’t work with you as an adviser, they don’t care if you did or did not have a contract, they just collect. Much like Grinner’s daughter.
You may want to tell the client that this is your next step, and it could impact their credit rating. It may be all you need to do.
I have never subscribed to the theory that if you don’t have a contract, well there is NOTHING you can do. There is a lot you can do.
The client has put a burden on you, you push a burden back on them. Collection agencies are very burdensome and tiresome. Angst can sometimes work better than a contract (most of which are not honored anyway or easy to get out of).
The bottom line is not you need contracts, the bottom line is you need communication. People get mad and upset and avoid things because they feel they are misunderstood or things are not how they envisioned. Being crystal clear upfront by explaining everything that will take place can work more wonders than a contract ever could.
___________________________
Franklin McMahon / Host
CreativeCow.net PODCAST
frank@fmstudio.com
Creative Cow Podcast Page
Creative Cow Podcast in iTunesMedia Artist Secrets Blog / Franklin McMahon TV Show: FranklinMcMahon.com
Studio Page -
“They come at you with a knife, you come back with a gun. They put your guys in the hospital, you put theirs in the morgue. THAT’s the Chicago Way.”
Well, that’s one extreme.:-) First-timers, you treat with suspiction; no matter what, the new customer pays a deposit and in full, or no laundry. After you’ve both got a feel for each other and have “trained” each other on expectations and built some trust, then is the time you can ease up a bit on the COD requirements for delivery. Try not to confuse business with personal. Thatn is easy to do in creative endeavors.
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[Jim Harvey] ” Small Claims court is just another way to lose an additional few thousand dollars. If you don’t think that the time that you will spend chasing this client into SCC then you really don’t belong in business in the first place.”
Jim,
I really think that’s overstated and it could be very easily misconstrued by any casual reader as a warning that a typical small claims case can easily backfire, costing the claimant thousands. I understand that your intent may be to make the point that your time is better spent pursuing new work, but I don’t think that’s the way most will be view your words.
And, with regard to most small claims suits most Cows might file, the fact is, it’s very easy in most instances to prove a loss in court in our business simply by showing a judge the paper trail of communications between yourself and the client. Hopefully, no one here would go to court without an invoice and a few documents showing previous attempts to collect the debt. And, seldom does a countersuit in small claims court ever prevail, unless the deadbeat client could prove incompetence or negligence on the part of the filmmaker, which itself would typically require its own paper trail generated in advance of the claimant’s attempt to collect the bad debt.
[Jim Harvey] “More importantly, what makes you think that you’ll win? SCC is NOTORIOUS for delivering bad decisions and if your client has a more compelling story than yours, or a judge that is incompetent, you could find that YOU OWE HER. Don’t laugh, it has happened more times that you could imagine. “
Again, I think this is overstated. As I stated before, the typical paper trail we all generate during our day to day communications most often clearly establishes that we have provided certain goods and/or services and that attempts to collect on all or part of an invoice has failed. Anyone who knowingly pursues a claim in court against a client who has established a paper trail of their own that would indicate the provider of services was incompetent or negligent would have to be a real dope, as that might actually provide cause for a valid counterclaim.
Sure, judges are human, and as humans they are prone to mistakes, and thus they might toss out your case, but judges are not stupid. Small claims judges know why they’re in small claims court, and they are reviewed quite vigorously, as most aspire to higher judicial positions. So, no one should live in fear that they will take a big hit for filing a claim in small claims court against a person or company who clearly has failed to pay.
David
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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The latest update:
* I have quit calling her and am communicating only by email.
* I sent her an email today stating that due to the lack of response to my calls and offers of payment plans & other choices (collateral) : I have stopped all work on the project until payment arrangements are made.; I will be holding the final DVD until final payment is made.; She must immediately discontinue the use of all materials I have created for her in relation to the project until full payment is made. (dvd cover,label, graphics,etc as well as the DVD itself – even though it is really not 100% complete, she is still trying to sell it – I’ve checked her sales page)* her latest response is that she is glad we are emailing because is shows she is responsive; she is glad she is paying me ($40 when she gets around to it) because it shows she is paying…. yada yada… and that she is coming up with a “document” for me.
She is stringing this out and being as smart as she can to cover her end. She is playing me like a fiddle.
My question is :
* Now that I have told her to Cease & Desist using all materials – what do I do to enforce it?
I don’t think she will actually take anything down or stop using any materials, judging from her response.. (and lack thereof)
* will these little micro payments every so often help her in SCC if it goes that far? (i don’t want it to, but we’ll see)Looks like i’m up the river on this one. What do you think?
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