Cleaning up another Editor’s MESS!! HDV & DV PAL nightmare need help me.

[Rafael Amador]

[lisa rolley] “In looking closer at these sequences comprised of pal & HDV footage I have just discovered that many of the clips have filters applied to them (shift fields +1 & deinterlace set to Upper Fields) applied to them and its set to Upper so i am definitely curious about why he has those filters on these clips and ultimately what is the best “
Hi Lisa,
Your Sequence (DV PAL) is Lower first and your footage(HDV) is Upper First, so when you lie your clips FC automatically set the Shift Fields filter to compensate.
The de-interlacing filter makes sense if you want your movie progressive. For that you need to set the sequence’s field order: NONE.
You need a PAL master that works. From them get your NTSC.mov and only when you are sure that this one works too (monitor interlaced) , go to the MPG2 NTSC.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Paul Dickin]

[lisa rolley] “…there is this jittery awful effect on playback in NTSC FORMAT DVD on TV”
Hi
Are you looking at it on a proper NTSC-switching production monitor?
Because an ordinary PAL television set could well be scaling your image – badly – if you are viewing your movie as PAL60.

[Jason Porthouse]

Lisa,

You need to separate out 2 issues here. The first is the discrepancy between field order in DV and HDV. If you put HDV in a DV sequence FCP should resize and apply shift fields, and vice-versa as both have differing field orders. You will only see this correctly if you’re monitoring on a proper, interlaced CRT monitor being driven by a Kona or Blackmagic card (or similar – i.e one that has a proper composite, component or SDI video out), You won’t see this on a computer monitor. Many people get caught on this as the first time they realise it’s wrong is when playing an authored DVD on a TV.

Once you’ve got your timeline correct – so if its a DV PAL timeline all material should be lower field first, and the HDV material will have Shift Fields applied (and opposite if it’s a HDV timeline) then you can move to the NTSC issue.

I’m in PAL land and authoring an NTSC version of a PAL production at the moment. My workflow was:

Cut in PAL DV – Grade and polish, then output QT self-contained.
Compressor to encode MPEG files and Dolby audio
DVDSP to author and burn

then, using the self-contained QT:
import in to new NTSC project with a ProRes setup – I used this rather than DV for preserving quality, but you may want to use DV for speed if it’s for non-critial appraisal
Use Natress Standards Conversion filter to convert PAL to NTSC
Export Self-contained QT – this is NTSC native
Compressor to encode NTSC MPEG assets
DVDSP to author

I’m very happy with the results. It seems like a faff, but it’s a straightforward workflow once you’ve gotten your head around it.

You could use Compressor to convert PAL to NTSC if you don’t have (or don’t want to buy) Natress Standards Converter.

BUT – heres the rub – you will have odd results IF your fields aren’t right to begin with. Hence the need for proper monitoring.

HTH

Jason

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you’ll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*

[Lisa Rolley]

hey guys thanks so much for the responses – so i guess the question i still have is which format should my sequences be moving forward if the majority of the footage is hdv 1080i50? A small amount of the footage is PAL DV but it is important footage and does need to be in the trailer as well as the full documentary itself – what would you guys suggest – any other thoughts?

In terms of just resolving this trailer issue it seems you guys are suggesting that i switch clips that are set to upper back to lower in that the sequence itself is DV PAL which is lower – i just wish i could speak to the editor because i want to know what if any of the filters he actually applied and which FCP did automatically…

what a mess!! any other advice would be great

again thanks everyone

best

Lisa

[Chris Poisson]

Lisa,

To see which clips have filters on them, go to Sequence>Settings>Timeline options and check the boxes under Clip Keyframes. Probably want to leave the bottom two unchecked.

The advice on field order is a good place to start. If Compressor isn’t doing this the way you like and you can afford it, Episode Pro does amazing standards conversions. Note that unless you crop the video it can be distorted, but it is minimal.

Have a wonderful day.

[Jason Porthouse]

Lisa,

If your main source is HDV, then I’d stick with that if you want an HD master as your deliverable

If not, you need to decide on the best workflow.

If I were in your position, I’d take the path of least resistance. If you’ve 20% DV footage, and the rest is HDV, I’d be inclined to stick with HDV and up-res the DV. It may look pants for the offline but you can do it properly for the online – either use Compressor to up-res (creating new media) or something like Digital Anarchy’s ReSizer.

If you do that, then simply go through the DV clips applying the Shift Fields filter accordingly.

You could try this to make sure it’s right: select all DV clips, right-click and remove attributes, check filters. This removes all filters so don’t do this if clips are CC’d etc. Then command-c to copy – then, make a new sequence, easy setup HDV 1080i50, and paste clips in to this, the SFF should be applied correctly for the DV clips.

HTH

Jason

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you’ll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*

[Rafael Amador]

[lisa rolley] “In terms of just resolving this trailer issue it seems you guys are suggesting that i switch clips that are set to upper back to lower in that the sequence itself is DV PAL which is lower – “
No.
Your HDV clips should show up in the Browser as Upper.
When you drop them in a DV (Lower) sequence, FC add the filter.
The DV footage don’t get the Shift Fields because is already Lower.
Is OK
You don’t have to take the Shift Fields filter away from the HDV clips.
Any other kind of filter had been set manually.
Have a look to the De-interlacing filter.
As I tell you only make sense if you want to finish as Progressive,
Have a look to what happens if you just delete them.
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Lisa Rolley]

Thank you for the responses most makes sense and i actually already understood so here is what i am still not sure about:

Just a few questions –
1)Jason you said that i should probably work in HDV 1080i50 since the majority of the footage right now is in that format – how would i uprez the DV footage in compressor exactly?

“If you do that, then simply go through the DV clips applying the Shift Fields filter accordingly.”

Do you mean once i uprez them in compressor THEN bring in fcp and apply shift fields – would’nt compressor alread yhave done that in the process of uprezing the resolution from 720×576(PAL) to HDV 1440×1080 or whatever?

Then this other route you suggest – “You could try this to make sure it’s right: select all DV clips, right-click and remove attributes, check filters. This removes all filters so don’t do this if clips are CC’d etc. Then command-c to copy – then, make a new sequence, easy setup HDV 1080i50, and paste clips in to this, the SFF should be applied correctly for the DV clips.” – do you mean to then just paste in and render in FCPO because it would apply the shift field filters the opposite way it did (+1) in the PAL DV timeline as opposed to doing that in Compressor???

If your main source is HDV, then I’d stick with that if you want an HD master as your deliverable

If not, you need to decide on the best workflow.

If I were in your position, I’d take the path of least resistance. If you’ve 20% DV footage, and the rest is HDV, I’d be inclined to stick with HDV and up-res the DV. It may look pants for the offline but you can do it properly for the online – either use Compressor to up-res (creating new media) or something like Digital Anarchy’s ReSizer.

If you do that, then simply go through the DV clips applying the Shift Fields filter accordingly.

You could try this to make sure it’s right: select all DV clips, right-click and remove attributes, check filters. This removes all filters so don’t do this if clips are CC’d etc. Then command-c to copy – then, make a new sequence, easy setup HDV 1080i50, and paste clips in to this, the SFF should be applied correctly for the DV clips.

thanks again for your time

best
Lisa

[Jason Porthouse]

Hi Lisa,

Sorry if I confused you more…

Shift Fields only ever needs to be applied in the case of mixing differing field order material. So if you mix HDV and DV in the same timeline, as the two have differing field orders. So, if you have an HDV timeline with HDV material predominantly, you (or FCP) would apply the SF to any DV material that you cut in to that timeline – and vice-versa.

If you convert DV to HDV material in Compressor, for instance, you create new HDV clips – these will not need SF applying if used in an HDV sequence. Compressor has done the job for you, and changed the field order from lower to upper (provided you haven’t changed the default settings). I’d only look at doing this at online stage, unless a) you have little DV material and b) you’re sure about how your delivering the final piece. If that’s not fixed yet, stick with DV – as you may decide to finish in ProRes or some other HD flavour, and put up with the shift fields thing. Once you’ve gotten your head round it you’ll be fine.

BTW converting SD to HD in compressor – I think Shane did a tutorial about it sometime, and I’ve used it with good results. I tend to do it at finder level – drop the source QTs into compressor, go to Advanced Format Conversion and choose the codec I want, creating new clips alongside (or in another folder) with a suitably appended filename – so I don’t destroy the originals. Then import these in to FCP. Compressor is a really cool tool for doing conversions like this, and with a little tweaking the results are pretty good. Not as good as a Terranex, but cheaper! If you;ve a lot of footage it can be pretty render intensive though, so best left on overnight.

HTH

Jason

_________________________________

Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes.
Then when you do criticise him, you’ll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

*the artist formally known as Jaymags*