Buying used macpro advice

[Jason Myres]

If you are going to be doing video using modern software packages like FCS3 or CS5, I would get an Early 2008 (3,1) or newer, 8-Core. The 1,1 doesn’t have 64-bit bios which will prevent you from taking full advantage of 10.6, and CS5 which makes real use of a 64-bit machine. This is a big deal.

Also, the 1,1 is very limited if you want a modern video card. The lastest card it can take advantage of is a Radeon 4870, which is over two years old now. I have heard the 5000-series Radeons may work, but it would be a waste in a 1,1 as the PCIe 1.1 bus is just too slow. Most modern cards require 64-bit bios and PCIe 2.0 to work correctly.

$1100 sounds reasonable for a 1,1 but I would use a machine like that for 2D graphics, web, or audio work. I was in exactly your situation, and bought a mint 2006 2.66GHz Quad after having only a laptop for a long time, and quickly realized it was not going to be enough for what I was doing (FCS3, AE CS4/5, C4D). I upgraded to a 2008 2.8GHz 8-core that handles everything I throw at it, and has become one of the best machines I have ever owned.

JM

[Rafael Amador]

Agree with Jason.
That computer was great for DV, but to short for HD.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com

[Jeff Mueller]

Well, they’re probably right, but I hope they’re wrong. Whatever miserly income I make I make from film and video work, and I’m thrilled to have just upgraded from an iMac to a Gen 1 Mac Pro 1,1. I don”t intend to edit uncompressed HD on it, Pro Res 4:2:2 is everything I need at present and I hope my bigger dreams will support an on-line session.

Right now (my “new” Mac Pro 1,1 hasn’t arrived yet) I am comfortably able to edit HDV 1080 60i (or 24p) with renders to Pro Res 4:2:2. My problems come when I work with too many layers or venture off into Ram (or vRam) intensive programs like AE or Color. With the capacity for 32 GB ram and an ATI 4870 1 Gig video card I am optimistic that my “new” Mac Pro will blow those problems out of the water (but it is a matter of perspective).

So back to the system you propose: Airport card is nice, but worth $20-$40 in real world terms. 6 GB Ram is adequate for FCP7 which (if i understand correctly) can use up to 4 GB leaving 2 GB for other system processes. For After Effects I currently think 10-12 GB is good. (1-2 GB per core plus 2 GB for other processes seams to be the min spec). When you say Leopard 6.3 I assume you really mean Snow Leopard 10.6.3? No reason not to use Snow Leopard if you have FCS 2009.

Scratch drives will be important and you may want more ram and a better video card (a complicated issue with early Mac Pros). But IMHO (and I’m a relative Newbie) the system you propose has good bones for indie film making or local commercial video production. J. Walter Thompson won’t hire you, but do you care?

My biggest concern with your proposal is 2.0gHz processor. I’m an artist not an expert, but as I understand it a lot of my key apps (like FCP7) can’t make full use of multi-cores (I think Compressor and AE can), so for those apps a 2.0gHz processor is taking you back to 2005 (maybe there was a cute girl-or guy, I don;t care- in your life in 2005 so you want to go there, but otherwise: a 2.0 machine is a bit limiting, 2.66 quad or 2,26 octo would seem better, but $1100 for that computer seems fair (not a steel, mind you).

Hope this helps.

Jeff Mueller
http://www.ApertureVideos.com
Santa Barbara, CA

[Andrew Golden]

Jason Myres writes: “The 1,1 doesn’t have 64-bit bios which will prevent you from taking full advantage of 10.6, and CS5 which makes real use of a 64-bit machine. This is a big deal.”

This is not accurate. Yes, the 1,1 doesn’t have 64-bit bios and can’t boot into the 64-bit kernel. However, 64-bit applications do not require using a 64-bit kernel or having a 64-bit BIOS. Macs have supported 64-bit computing since the G5 processor. The Mac Operating System has supported running 64-bit applications (which can take advantage of larger amounts of RAM) since at least 10.4 (Tiger). Snow Leopard was only the first MacOS release that offered a 64-bit Kernel but you can still run 64-bit applications just fine and take advantage of the extra ram without booting into a 64-bit Kernel. Moreover, very few 64-bit applications require a 64-bit kernel. In fact, the 64-bit kernel is only going to be important to programs that require access to 64-bit hardware via 64-bit drivers.

Case in point, when Autodesk released their Smoke For Mac OSX application in December, it required the 64-bit Kernel mode because the application accessed the 64-bit addressing of the Kona3 card and the Nvidia Quadro FX 4800 video card to run the software. However, as of the latest version of the software, 64-bit kernel mode is not required nor is it supported. The machine must now be using a 32-bit kernel mode to run the “64-bit” application correctly. The new software now runs better than before and for a $15,000 dollar piece of software, I doubt they would ever consider using the 32-bit kernel mode if it slowed down performance, crippled the system, or prevented it from accessing the amounts of Ram the software needs.

Also, Adobe After Effects CS5 is 64-bit ONLY and will run on a MacPro 1,1 (I have tested this) regardless of the 32-bit only Kernel. As Jeff Mueller mentioned, I too agree that my biggest concern for performance on your system is the 2.0Ghz processor, but the RAM can be maxed-out for best performance and you can run any 64-bit application you want as long as it doesn’t require a 64-bit kernel (and I can’t think of one that does at the moment).

Andrew

Andrew S. Golden
Director of Marketing / Technology Specialist
Video Corporation of America
7 Veronica Avenue
Somerset, NJ 08875
http://www.vca.com

[Walter Biscardi]

I’m amused at the answers in this thread about “that machine is good for DV but not for HD.” I was cutting uncompressed HD running a G4. I delivered episodes of “Good Eats” to the Food Network in HD on a G5. We’re editing HD on 2 year old iMacs today.

So this machine you’re considering is more than capable of HD, particularly since you say you’re going to offline. Will it be blazingly fast compared to what’s out there today? Nope, but it will cut for you quite well for at least a year and at $1100 you’ll pay for that machine in one job.

The 6GB of RAM is a weird number, better to have that at 8GB or maybe even higher like 12 if the machine can take that.

As for buying a used machine, well how well do you know this person? Do you trust that they’ve taken care of it? When it comes to computer equipment I only purchase from folks I trust, either on this site or colleagues I work with every day. When I sell my own gear, I let folks know it’s “As Is” but if anything severe were to happen to it within the first month I would definitely help them out.

So you’re pretty much on your own when it comes to purchasing used gear but if you’re just asking if the Mac Pro will cut offline HD, then my answer is yes, it will. A brand new iMac will actually cut better and faster, but with the Mac Pro, you can install video cards and graphics cards that you can’t do with the iMac.

I guess a big question for you is what do you plan to use for a media array? That’s a big determining factor in whether or not you can edit HD. Not so much the computer.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

“Foul Water, Fiery Serpent” featuring Sigourney Weaver coming soon.

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[Ryan Vanderbek]

Thank you all for your advice. It is great to have a place this to hear from people who have the experience. I think I might hold off on this purchase for now.

Thanks again,

RV

[Jason Myres]

[Andrew Golden] “Yes, the 1,1 doesn’t have 64-bit bios and can’t boot into the 64-bit kernel.”

That’s exactly what “prevent you from taking full advantage of 10.6” means. lol.

There are a ton of forum threads out there that have discussed this issue ad nauseam. That being said, early Mac Pro’s have some important limitations, and there are a lot of people who purchased attractively priced, used machines, only to have regretted it later. I was just trying to keep Ryan from being another one.

JM

[Andrew Golden]

Jason,

With all due respect, your previous statement made it sound as if he couldn’t run 64-bit programs on that 1,1 Mac Pro. Are you aware that MacPros don’t even boot into the 64-bit kernel by default?? Did you know that only the Xserve boots into the 64-bit kernel by default?? Yes, you are totally correct that the MacPro 1,1 can’t “take full advantage of 10.6”. But guess what, that is not an issue for 99% of users because they never need the 64-bit kernel to run their 64-bit programs. If someone on this forum is using the 64-bit kernel mode for something to do with Final Cut Pro editing, I’d like to know why because in the majority of cases it’s unnecessary. Regardless, again, you made it seem like he couldn’t use CS5 or 64-bit programs to their full advantage (which they can – only limited to processor/bus speed and ram), and if someone is going to make an informed decision, they need to know all the facts in their entirety.

As for people buying used MacPro 1,1’s and regretting it – it’s all dependent on what the user needs and what they are connecting to it. I have built hundreds of systems over the past 10 years working for one of the largest VAR’s in the industry. I have many clients using that same model MacPro to do extensive HD editing without “regretting” their purchase weather new at the time or used today. Again, it’s all dependent on what the user needs. However, generalizations about equipment without giving whole facts only confuses people making decisions and puts more mis-informed information out there for people to wade through.

Andrew

Andrew S. Golden
Director of Marketing / Technology Specialist
Video Corporation of America
7 Veronica Avenue
Somerset, NJ 08875
http://www.vca.com

[Dimitrios Papagiannis]

Hi Jason.

I have exactly the same Pac pro you do. Can you give me any quantitative advice as far as how much ram and how I should use the slots in order to get the best bang for the buck in CS5 AE.

Thanks

[Al Bergstein]

Ryan, when you do decide to buy, what I did was buy used through Craigslist. I had the guy meet me with the machine at the Apple store (a 2 hr drive for me), and had them do a quick diagnositics on it. Then I paid him via paypal in the store on one of their computers. This allowed me to safely meet the seller and get the machine checked out in a well lit store (if you are close to one). The machine has worked great, but it’s not the early Mac. I agree with the assessments that you *could* do it if you lower your expectations of how fast it will perform. (speed is relative, what ever you have, you’ll want more for rendering).

There seems to be lots of used machines out there for sale, so best of luck finding the right one. It’s always a tough decision of whether to buy new or used.

Alf