BetaSP Versus DV in After Effects

[Walter Biscardi]

[DoctorSney] “They’re both digital video, and so they have a spatial resolution of 720×486 for NTSC for example, so I don’t see how one would be more advantageous to shoot with if you’re going to slap a load of effects on or chromakey etc.”

BetaSP is analog video 720×486 while DV is digital video with 5:1 compression and 720×480.

For Chroma Key I would shoot BetaSP and capture at 8bit SD Uncompressed. You will get a far superior key with this method than to shoot with DV and do Chroma Key.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

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[Chris Smith]

Not to mention 4:2:2 vs 4:1:1.

Chris Smith
https://www.sugarfilmproduction.com

[Barend Onneweer]

[Chris Smith] “Not to mention 4:2:2 vs 4:1:1.”

I think you’re referring to DigiBeta. Beta SP is of course analog and the sampling ratios depend on how you capture it.

For a while I’ve recommended shooting BetaSP and capturing uncompressed over shooting DV, for chromakeying.

But these days I find BetaSP to be noisier than DV, if you use a recent high-quality DV camera. Something like the DVX100 or Canon XL2.

Especially if you use something like Magic Bullet for DV artefacts removal, DV can produce pretty good results.

Of course if possible I’d shoot DigiBeta for chromakeying.

Bar3nd

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[Chris Zwar]

I recall a past thread on a similar topic (DV or BetaSP for archiving) where all who worked with Beta SP recommended DV, and those who used DV recommended BetaSP… the point being that neither format is perfect and you’ll have problems with both.

But Barend’s point about cameras is worth emphasising… DV is a format that can be used by a small, single chip consumer camera with a plastic lens, or it can be recorded from a high-end studio camera with a lens worth more than an entire XL2. The difference will be amazing. The only time I’ve ever tried keying from DV was with footage shot on Panasonic’s top-end DVC-Pro camera and the results were great. The amount of experience the camera operator has with bluescreen is important too.

So the camera is very important, as is the lighting, and will probably make a more significant impact on your results than the actual recording format. FWIW I hate analogue video, I totally agree that BetaSP is noisier and drop-outs/ bearding can give you grief too…

-Chris

Motion Graphics Designer
Will animate for food

[Sney Noorani]

ok we’re creaking round to answering my question, which is more about big gaping holes in my knowledge about how these things work which is what happens when you teach yourself this stuff…

firstly apologies for saying that BSP and DV are both digital video. obviously BSP is analogue, but once they’re in the machine then you’re still dealing with digitised video at approximately 720 x 486 give or take a few lines.

Just to clue you in as to the extent of my knowledge, I usually take material that other people have shot and edit/add effects then output. With stuff that’s shot on DV, BSP or Digi I’m often not involved in either the shooting or digitising stage, I basically come in and cut the footage and add all the fancy stuff. But I want to learn more about how to shoot and digitise stuff so that when it comes to adding effects, I can get the cleanest chromakeys etc.

I can’t afford film, so it’s going to have to be video. I probably can’t afford DigiBeta, but even if I managed to wangle a digibeta camera and deck, what’s the process by which it can arrive in after effects in it’s most… advantageous (for want of a better word) form?

I presume I have to digitise via the serial digital interface into the Avid or FCP suite. Are there’ specifc capture settings to get the most information out the footage? Does it all tie into whether it’s 4:2:2? or 4:4:4? these terms were only explained to me earlier this week, and I’ve been editing and doing effects for 4 years… (whoops…).

when walter biscardi said:

“For Chroma Key I would shoot BetaSP and capture at 8bit SD Uncompressed. You will get a far superior key with this method than to shoot with DV and do Chroma Key.”

I gathered that there are specific ways to capture the footage to get the most information out of it. assuming that 8bit uncompressed is the best way to capture (when you said SD, do you mean standard definition or Serial Digital?)

So once the footage is in the machine in my NLE, do I have to export it to AFX in a specific manner? I usually do quicktime references to the media I’ve captured, or a QT reference to a sequence I’ve cut, and then import that into after effects and then work. Also sometimes I export a .mov from my NLE to work with in AFX, this is either a TIFF or Targa compressed .mov as they’re not noticeably lossy.

But should I export the footage differently? Should I come out of my NLE with a .mov with ‘None’ as the compressor? My FCP system at work has the option for uncompressed 10-bit or uncompressed 8-bit… are these better?

Which one is going to provide After Effects with the most information so I can then get the best quality when I key or colour grade?

thanks so much for your time and help.

[Chris Smith]

[Barend Onneweer] “I think you’re referring to DigiBeta. Beta SP is of course analog and the sampling ratios depend on how you capture it. “

Ah yes, i missed that. whenever i hear beta it is in terms of digibeta as it seems SP is in the history books with 3/4″ at least around these parts. 🙂

Keep truckin.

Dr:

To answer one of your Q’s, I capture Digi through SDI to 10 bit Black Magic codec if on FCP or to 10 bit Avid codec if on the DS. Both obviously at 720 x 486.

Chris Smith
https://www.sugarfilmproduction.com

[Sney Noorani]

To answer one of your Q’s, I capture Digi through SDI to 10 bit Black Magic codec if on FCP or to 10 bit Avid codec if on the DS. Both obviously at 720 x 486.

ok, so when the media is being captured at 10 bits instead of 8, is it being sampled at a higher resolution by the computer, or are the extra ‘2 bits’ extra channels of information encoded into the footage when it’s shot?

I think my question is wnadering into the realms of extremely technical inner workings of cameras, but if anyone knows how cameras encode what they capture, then feel free to enlighten me.

thanks

Sney //

[Chris Smith]

I’ve never used a Digibeta cam, but my material originates on 35mm then is transferred through a Spirit Telecin

[Sney Noorani]

my god man, you frankly have much nicer toys than I do. I should move out of the sticks…

[Chris Smith]

Man, I don’t own it at all. Geez a Spirit’s like a million bucks on it’s own not to mention a Da Vinci. Just rent the time. We own one Arri 235, but it lives at Panavision where it gets rented out when we don’t use it. We even rent the digi deck from Pani. It’s a little bit of a hassle to pick up the deck every couple of weeks, but I can’t see buying or leasing one when I feel that the use of decks will die off coming soon. I see a day around the corner that we paid so much money for these huge machines just to move data around. My bet is on the technology that IBM’s been working on where a TB of info fits on a credit card. It would be nice to go to a transfer session and leave with all your footage at 32 bit to slide in your wallet 🙂

Chris Smith
https://www.sugarfilmproduction.com