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Beating a dead horse
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[Andrew Kimery] “and since when does caring/not caring prevent us from debating about something in here. ;)”
touché 🙂
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~ My FCPX Babbling blog ~
~\”It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools.\”~
~I still need to play Track Tetris sometimes. An old game that you can never win~
~\”The function you just attempted is not yet implemented\”~ -
For the rock ‘n roll fans that are into beating dead horses…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8X76NRiQLQ
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I prefer this, right at the 3:40 mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPv7xWQzgs
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin\’ attached to nothin\’
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[Andrew Kimery] “So you could officially stop selling 7 at the drop of a hat w/o pissing off a boatload of customers so bad that you have to start selling 7 again, but the damage was already done. “
You are missing the point. I am not saying stop selling 7, but why would you give a version of 7 to everyone who buys X? I mean, would Adobe do that now? Avid? “here is our new software, and if you buy it, you get a free version of the old software”. Terrible. You introduce the new software and phase out the old. Of course the new software has to be better than the mid-beta crap that was X at its first release. But to give an old version when you buy the new version is just a bad idea.
[Andrew Kimery] “Randy lived through this once with the iMovie ’08 redesign, launch and backlash and he was keen to not make the same mistake twice.”
I have all the respect in the world for Randy. I make my salary on his work. But the idea above is simply not good business. The key is to have a product that is ready to replace the old product before release. X was not.
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Scott Witthaus] “You are missing the point. I am not saying stop selling 7, but why would you give a version of 7 to everyone who buys X?”
Because it’s feature incomplete but you want to nudge people towards it. Apple did the same thing with iMovie ’08 and iMovie HD. HD was mature and feature rich, ’08 was completely redesigned and feature bare. People got pissed so Apple gave away HD to everyone who bought ’08. I think a year or two later they released another version of iMovie that hard largely replaced the missing features in ’08 so they discontinued the offer.
Someone at Apple was afraid that continuing to sell FCP 7 would hinder the adaption rate of X so they chose to stop selling it. Bundling an 7 license w/X would’ve been a better compromise (and one that had worked for Apple in the past).
[Scott Witthaus] “I mean, would Adobe do that now? Avid? “here is our new software, and if you buy it, you get a free version of the old software”. “
Adobe basically does that w/it’s subscription model and when I bought my Avid 8.x perpetual license it also gave me access to Avid 7 and Avid 6.
[Scott Witthaus] “I have all the respect in the world for Randy. I make my salary on his work. But the idea above is simply not good business. The key is to have a product that is ready to replace the old product before release. X was not.”
Ideally yes, but how much longer would that have taken before X matched features with 7. 12 months? 24 months? The FCP Legend natives were already restless thanks to the lame 2009 update so expecting users to wait until 2012 or 2013 would’ve been the greater of two evils, IMO. Releasing X in 2011 was the right call, Apple just dropped the ball on the launch (starting with the last minute take over of the Supermeet).
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[Scott Witthaus] “why would you give a version of 7 to everyone who buys X? I mean, would Adobe do that now? Avid? “here is our new software, and if you buy it, you get a free version of the old software”. “
Adobe does do that. A CC subscription includes every release of all the Adobe apps going back to CS6.
Why ship 7 with X? Remember the original premise for FCP X’s spiritual predecessor, iMovie ’08:
“Randy came back from a diving vacation and going through his footage realized that the standard UI paradigm of Avid/Premiere/Final Cut/Vegas/Liquid/etc. (all somewhat similar in media management) were not an ideal environment for the very first step in post-production: organizing raw footage.
“So Randy starting writing an app: “First Cut”, a professional-level “feeder” app for Final Cut Pro. You would launch First Cut, import all your raw footage, then quickly skim through, keywording, organizing, marking as good or rejecting, and finally building a rough edit.
“Then you would “Export to Final Cut Pro”, and import the rough cut XML into Final Cut Pro to fine-tune edits, color grade, add titles and effects, composite, key, mix sound and do your final mastering. First Cut was born for one purpose only– to make plowing through and organizing mountains of footage efficient and even enjoyable.”
(Citation: https://dvcreators.net/2011/06/23/what-does-the-guy-who-led-the-original-final-cut-pro-revolution-think-of-the-final-cut-pro-x-release/)
With this model in mind, and with a lot of finishing features still missing from FCP X at launch, I think there’s at least a reasonable argument for shipping both together.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Andrew Kimery] “Because it’s feature incomplete but you want to nudge people towards it.”
No. The fact is that nudging people towards it makes a company continue to develop two products. One of the historical problems with Avid development was their insistence to upgrade older versions of the product while trying to convince people to buy the new version. Made no sense at all. Once a new version is released, any development of older versions should cease. So, you can introduce X and still sell 7 for a while, but make it clear there will be no further investment in the development of 7 after X is released. And in reality, that’s what happened.
[Andrew Kimery] “Adobe basically does that w/it’s subscription model”
Do tell. I just upgraded my CC and it overwrote the older software versions.
[Andrew Kimery] “Apple did the same thing with iMovie ’08 and iMovie HD.”
Talk to Symphony users when Avid announced that DS would be it’s HD solution. Talk about a “backstroke” after that!
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Scott Witthaus] “Do tell. I just upgraded my CC and it overwrote the older software versions.”
1) You can uncheck Remove Old Versions [link] in the Creative Cloud’s Advanced Options. I understand the consensus here that removing the previous version is a curious default. I also understand that NOT removing previous versions bucks the common user expectation updates happen in place, and don’t typically leave you with two different versions of your software sucking up disk space on your incredibly tiny SSD. This is a rock-and-a-hard-place decision for Adobe; no matter which option they choose, it’s wrong.
2) You can install previous releases [link] from Creative Cloud, and they will peacefully co-exist with whatever later versions you also have installed.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “of finishing features still missing from FCP X at launch,”
This is the problem that Apple had; X was not ready for release when it was released. Had it been, this thread might be irrelevant.
[Walter Soyka] “Why ship 7 with X? Remember the original premise for FCP X’s spiritual predecessor, iMovie ’08:”
Once again, had Apple “baked” X to a point where it was ready for release, any idea of shipping X with a version of 7 makes no sense. Is 7 a feeder for X? Is X a feeder for 7?
What I would like to see from that interview is why X was released in the shape it was in. It was mid-beta at best. Can Randy explain that to us?
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Scott Witthaus] “This is the problem that Apple had; X was not ready for release when it was released. Had it been, this thread might be irrelevant.”
Software is never finished, so how do you decide when it’s ready?
What version of FCPX was the first you consider release-ready? What would have happened in the NLE market if Apple waited another year or two between 7 and X, with no releases for either one during the interregnum?
[Scott Witthaus] “Talk to Symphony users when Avid announced that DS would be it’s HD solution. Talk about a “backstroke” after that!”
Too bad, right? Imagine what DS could have been if it had gotten the attention and resources it needed.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn]
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