Backup & Archival Plan–eSATA, SAS, & BOB.

[Bob Zelin]

what do I recommend – these are all teriffic products. SATA has become generic. Sonnet, Maxx Digital, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce all make great products. All of these products are similar priced, if you look at size and features. How big are your drives, do you get RAID 0 or RAID 5, or are you using individual drives. Remember, no matter who you choose, you are sticking your data on Hitachi or Seagate drives, and this is who is responsible – not these other companies !

If you want to spend as little as possible, a web search will tell you who is the cheapest.

Bob Zelin

[Robert Broussard]

Bob,

Many of the multi-bay external enclosures are designed for RAID setups; however my desire for a multi-bay enclosure for backup/archive may never be setup for RAID functionality (although the flexibility of different ports and the ability to raid is a plus). Does a particular enclosure standout as a backup archival device? Do you like any of the tray-less enclosures?

If I can afford the time to restore a backup if a single drive failed, is there a need to have a protected (Raid5) raid? I guess you are protected by some failures up to the minute–meaning that last night’s backup may be several hours old and that could make a difference. If you are just doing say DV–does it help to have a drive setup that’s much faster than it needs to be? For example, Biscardi’s favorite RAID system right now is sweet but over-kill for my immediate needs…. but if I had that, would basic things like: Aperture library usage and FCP with uncompressed SD and lighter uses benefit from this extravagance?

I guess I could use independent drives in my Mac Pro (via software or hardware raid) and use removable hard drives (via an external enclosure) for local and off-site backup–but I see the benefits of the external RAID… Okay, now I can see having the external RAID enclosure and the backup/archival enclosure.

Let’s suppose that we use eSATA or SAS to connect this enclosure to the MacPro, I assume that we’ll want to use a single card that can service both a great RAID solution and the backup/archival enclosure. Let’s assume for the moment that FireWire is not available on the backup enclosure or that you wanted the SATA speed. Does a particular pair of enclosures standout where one is the backup for the RAID and other machines and the other is a RAID where all of your most important files are located?

Come to think of it, do you not use a raid protected setup for non-media files…? Not for the performance but for the added protection? Just a thought.

Thanks,

Robert

[Ramona Howard]

Robert,

We have a new product emerging at NAB called the Bravo, it may be worth taking a look at as it tackles both of these needs.

Here is the little bit of info we have put out but we really are not putting any real details out yet. Please fell free to email me off list and I will give you what you need as there is much more to the product than what we show here.

https://www.spectsoft.com/RaveManual-Products-RaveHD-Bravo.html

Cheers,
Ramona
ramona@spectsoft.com

[Bob Zelin]

Robert –
I am not going to answer any more of your questions until you tell me how much money you would like to spend on this product.

Bob Zelin

[Robert Broussard]

[Bob Zelin] “I am not going to answer any more of your questions until you tell me how much money you would like to spend on this product.
“

Bob, okay, let me think out loud here… On the backup portion, It might be something like this:

$700 External 5-bay PM enclosure w/eSATA card. Something like: <https://firmtek.stores.yahoo.net/sata5pm2se4.html>

$1560 Hitachi 1GB Drives (6). Two backup sets of two drives each with at least one set (2 drives) off-site. Or, I could use my existing 500GB drives from my Mac Pro and replace with 1TB drives… I would have one bay on the enclosure not part of the backup sets… Or, with 500GB drives we could start with $960 (6 * 160) worth of media.

$40 Extra Trays (2)

$40 Padded carrying cases for the off-site drives…

$40 Misc.

So, for the backup alone we are looking at about $2,380 (6TB) or $1,780 with 3TBs of backup storage.

Now, using a hardware RAID-5 capable box like a 2TB Sonnet Fusion (D400RAID) that will be another $3,000 or so. <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond400raid.html>

Now, these prices include two SATA cards…. I would hope to use just one. Also, if I wanted to get by cheaply, I don’t absolutely need the RAID 5 media enclosure… I could use my internal Mac Pro drives. Right now I NEED backup. And, the backup could be cheaper too…. I could get a one or two bay enclosure. I wanted 4 so that I would not have to fool with the backup as much by having two large backup sets online at all times which should allow me to go a full week without having to swap drives.

With this strategy, I will spend roughly $1,700 to $2,300 on backup (which could be much less in a pinch) and another few thousand (say about $2,700) on a protected, RAID-5, SAS (?) media drive… So, I could easily spend $5k with this approach. As you’ve cautioned, I don’t want to over-buy in any one area. Some of what I want is a luxury and some of it–such as it pertains to off-site backups–is not something that can be avoided.

Anyway, I appreciate your taking the time to comment.

Thanks,

Robert

[Bob Zelin]

REPLY – I will respond below, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK. An empty port multipler 5 bay box from a good company is around $500, and a good eSATA card is about $289 – this is without drives. And this is either JBOD or RAID 0 (not RAID 5). So if you find some cheapo mail order stuff, I wish you luck with it. The prices I listed are for companies like Sonnet, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce, Maxx Digital, etc.

$700 External 5-bay PM enclosure w/eSATA card. Something like:
$1560 Hitachi 1GB Drives (6). Two backup sets of two drives each with at least one set (2 drives) off-site. Or, I could use my existing 500GB drives from my Mac Pro and replace with 1TB drives… I would have one bay on the enclosure not part of the backup sets… Or, with 500GB drives we could start with $960 (6 * 160) worth of media.
$40 Extra Trays (2)
$40 Padded carrying cases for the off-site drives…
$40 Misc.
So, for the backup alone we are looking at about $2,380 (6TB) or $1,780 with 3TBs of backup storage.
Now, using a hardware RAID-5 capable box like a 2TB Sonnet Fusion (D400RAID) that will be another $3,000 or so.

REPLY – the 2TB Sonnet D400RAID will become about 1.5TB of storage after the RAID 5 group is created. The Sonnet is an excellent product.

Now, these prices include two SATA cards…. I would hope to use just one.

REPLY – what are you talking about, nothing includes 2 SATA cards. And a RAID 5 SAS/SATA card is expensive, from any of the companies.

Also, if I wanted to get by cheaply, I don’t absolutely need the RAID 5 media enclosure… I could use my internal Mac Pro drives. Right now I NEED backup. And, the backup could be cheaper too…. I could get a one or two bay enclosure. I wanted 4 so that I would not have to fool with the backup as much by having two large backup sets online at all times which should allow me to go a full week without having to swap drives.

With this strategy, I will spend roughly $1,700 to $2,300 on backup (which could be much less in a pinch) and another few thousand (say about $2,700) on a protected, RAID-5, SAS (?) media drive… So, I could easily spend $5k with this approach. As you’ve cautioned, I don’t want to over-buy in any one area. Some of what I want is a luxury and some of it–such as it pertains to off-site backups–is not something that can be avoided

REPLY –
your decision will be based solely on how much (or how little) you want to spend. I have no suggestions for you. If labor is no big deal to you, buy individual 1TB SATA drives, stick them in your MAC pro, without buying anything else, and yank them out when you fill them up. This is the cheapest solution.

This post reflects most of my “smart ass comments” – as the usual question is (no matter what the actual subject) – WHAT IS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF MONEY I CAN SPEND – do you hear this Ramona ?????

bob Zelin

[Ramona Howard]

I’m with you on this Bob. Wow.

Come on, are we talking a professional solution that will insure your data will be protected or some one shopping at Frys here?

Backup and archival usually means you want to keep the stuff for awhile and not take the chance by physically pulling drives out of your Mac Pro. In otherwords you loose this stuff, it usually hurts.

We do provide dual SATA boards in RaveHD and also with the Bravo, but for a single 6/8 bay solution it isn’t feasible. Besides we are not talking Apples to Apples with the comparison of the products either.

If you simply want a solution to store data, go with Bobs recommendation if your looking for an all in one, again email me off list and I can give you some details BUT I can guarantee you it won’t be at the Frys price point. To do this in a professional manner one can not use $1.99 hard drives and $3.00 controllers, that would be suicide. Some things you just should not cut corners on.

Cheers,
Ramona

[Robert Broussard]

[Bob Zelin] “REPLY – I will respond below, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK. An empty port multipler 5 bay box from a good company is around $500, and a good eSATA card is about $289 – this is without drives.”

Good Luck? As it happens my idea for a 5-bay PM enclosure and SATA card are in line with your recommendations–right?

[Bob Zelin] “So if you find some cheapo mail order stuff, I wish you luck with it. The prices I listed are for companies like Sonnet, Cal Digit, Firmtek, Dulce, Maxx Digital, etc. “

Bob, I’ve never suggested that I was trying to avoid a quality solution–that’s why I’ve sought your advice. As you can see from my previous posts, I’m looking at quality manufacturers like: FirmTek and Sonnet, etc… I don’t want the “cheapo mail order stuff”. Where did you get that idea?

[Bob Zelin] “REPLY – what are you talking about, nothing includes 2 SATA cards. And a RAID 5 SAS/SATA card is expensive, from any of the companies. “

The Firmtek and the Sonnet hardware mentioned are both bundled with their own PCIe card… I mentioned this only to clarify; yet, this only seemed to have increased the confusion. I would hope that one card could service two external enclosures–yes? Is their a RAID 5 card (or other recommended hardware raid controller) that can also service my backup/archive enclosure? Or, would you use two cards?

[Bob Zelin] “REPLY –
your decision will be based solely on how much (or how little) you want to spend. I have no suggestions for you. If labor is no big deal to you, buy individual 1TB SATA drives, stick them in your MAC pro, without buying anything else, and yank them out when you fill them up. This is the cheapest solution. “

Bob, as you know, I’m seeking the best solution for me which will certainly NOT be the cheapest. Even if I wanted to spend $10,000 the best solution for backup might be implemented for less than $3,000–so, I don’t agree with the comment, “your decision will be based solely on how much (or how little) you want to spend”–that’s crazy talk. 🙂

[Bob Zelin] “This post reflects most of my “smart ass comments” – as the usual question is (no matter what the actual subject) – WHAT IS THE LEAST AMOUNT OF MONEY I CAN SPEND – do you hear this Ramona ????? “

Well I knew not to go to you or any other professional, with what’s the LEAST I CAN SPEND. Yet, I think it makes perfect sense to identify a solution that is effective and that is not more expensive than it has to be. For example, I need to address my current needs–not those too far into the future– because all of this stuff will be antiquated in 2-3 years anyway–right?

Bob, you asked my how much I wanted to spend and I took my time giving you a detailed answer. I think I’ve articulated my needs very clearly. If you have some solid advice on this matter, I would love to hear it.

What do you recommend to satisfy my backup and/or archival need? What are your thoughts about the new tray-less enclosures?

What media drive array? Can SD media (and/or Aperture Libraries) benefit from the speed of a RAID intended for HD? If I don’t need the speed, what level of protection do you recommend for important assets such as photos and videos and music, etc? Is RAID 3 okay or do you recommend going with RAID 5? based on my needs as described in this post and the ones before this, does a particular external RAID enclosure come to mind? I need at least 1 TB of useable space for now.

Thanks,

Robert

[Robert Broussard]

[Ramona Howard] ” I can guarantee you it won’t be at the Frys price point. To do this in a professional manner one can not use $1.99 hard drives and $3.00 controllers, that would be suicide. Some things you just should not cut corners on. “

Ramona, where did you get the idea that I wanted “the Frys price point”? If you look at my previous posts, you will understand my position. I think my my desire to spend about $3,000 to backup 1 TB of data is bordering on over-kill; yet, this data is important to me. Why $3k, because of budget or a predetermined desire to spend that amount? NO! It’s $3k because one of the high-quality manufacturers seem to have an elegant solution. It’s the product with the industry merit that gets my attention and my money.

So, forget about the cheapest solution–I’ve never taken the cheapest or easiest route.

Thanks,

Robert

[Ramona Howard]

Robert,

I must be reading the post entirely wrong….

It’s not the $3k for just the backup unit, that’s reasonable, it’s everything else you expect to get out of it for that price.

Just remember if you have 1TB of data that needs backing up, you need more than 1TB to do it in Raid, throw in the fact you want to possibly hot swap these out to double as an archival solution and all with using a cheap controller. Good luck with that. There is a slew of implications you may not be considering with that scenario.

Bob and I share the same passion when someone tackles an important issue (such as this one) with budget first and answers to a real solution second. First ask what solutions do it already and work your way down, you will find it easier to get the answers you need and or find out how difficult it may be to build your own, if you can get the answers to do it.

The Frys comment comes into play because it appears your determined to Frankenstein a solution together because it seems so easy to do with off the shelf components (again I say appears as this may not be your intentions). A mistake many make. Let me tell you, that’s one thing it isn’t (easy). Be prepared to become a hardware expert if this is a route you take 🙂

Again, if you simply need a backup solution many manufactures here will work great. Some of our backup units are Medea Arrays, they work great.

Best of luck on whatever you choose,
Ramona