AVC HD codec on SD Cards – here to stay?

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Galen Yeo] “Am observing how AVC HD is coming to town with the newer Pana range of cameras, but are there any indications on the performance of SD HC cards moving upwards to bigger bit rates? I think the AG-HMC 150 tops out at 21 mb/s or less.”

21mb/s is the top end of the AVCHD spec. If you read Sony’s white paper on the subject 13m/bs in AVCHD is equal to HDV. I believe that Panasonic is the only manufacturer that has offered a camera at 21mbs. But the future is very bright and shiny for AVCHD, or we call the professional level of AVCHD (21mbs) AVCCAM.

[Galen Yeo] “But how does this bode for the future? I know Pana doesn’t want to abandon P2 technology yet but will the mass convenience and technological developments of the AVC HD format / SD card format get to the point where it will replace the existing DVCPro HD codec?”

Panasonic is no where near abandoning P2, it is the upper end of the business where the stakes are higher for the customer and I-Frame codecs and controls are needed. Long GOP has its place, time and opportunity. But in the higher end circles, customer need and want a full 4:2:2, with independent frames. AVCHD could never in its longest hardest day compete with DVCPRO HD. It may have more resolution in a given frame but that is motion and content dependent. And the color resolution is not there. Now could AVC-Intra replace DVCPRO HD. Yes, but not today, and maybe not for a number of years. AVC-Intra also records at 100mbs but is 10 Bit with a full raster in the recorded footprint. This too only records on P2. Lots of future for P2. Format agnostic on the P2 card.

[Galen Yeo] “I hear that P2 development has already been abandoned outside of Panasonic for some time.”

The PCMCIA.org has made the suggestion that no further development time needs to be spent on the CardBus2 clot. This means that many companies will rush to the new thing as that is where money is made in the computer industry. Anything new always costs more.

But if it is tried and true and it just works, well that is where I would like to hang my hat in the video business. That is the CardBus2 slot, it just works. And heck right now I can still get a laptop from Lenovo, Sony, and Panasonic with the CardBus slot in it. There are others to be sure. And the worst case scenario if all computers failed to have that slot you still have your camera, which will not wear out in tranferring files to the computer. And if you don’t want to use your camera, there are a number of devices out there, starting with the cheapest, Duel-Systems. For less than $150 you can get a P2 adapter for the Express Card slot.

[Galen Yeo] “I would personally love for Pana to stick to SD HC cards and give long form users a longer recording capacity.”

The AVCHD codec due to its efficient codec is able to record long times on these cards. We have no intention of backing down on this commitment and will strive to make them even bigger and cameras even better. But this is a decision that is not going to influence P2 and its path at all.

Hope this helps,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Galen Yeo]

Hi Jan

Thanks. Always appreciate Panasonic’s tried and true responses.

As a long form user who owns DVCPro and DVCPro HD cameras – on tape – we have no intention of going the P2 route. It simply does not work for the factual / reality work that we do. Am heartened by the SD HC route. Would prefer to keep using Panasonic, but at the crossroads that we’re facing, we have to look at Sony again, simply for the expansive capability it offers in comparison. If things can scale up on the SD HC side, I foresee that would definitely work for us and many other users. We would be able to stick with Panasonic in a heartbeat. The look of the Panasonic camera has long been favoured by many cameramen and that is the key issue. But ultimately, a faster workflow is equally important. Am puzzled as to how and why Panasonic has not understood the needs of long form users with regards to P2. That’s been a key block for us, and I suspect many other people. You gain in some areas, but you lose in others. I understand the technology but I feel that Sony in that regard, has offered a better option for long form users.

Best regards

GY

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Galen Yeo] “As a long form user who owns DVCPro and DVCPro HD cameras – on tape – we have no intention of going the P2 route. It simply does not work for the factual / reality work that we do. “

Since I do not know exactly what you mean by this I can only say that there are people that do reality and long form work who do use
P2 as it speeds up other parts of the process significantly and the little hassle at the begininng is rewarded later.

[Galen Yeo] “Am heartened by the SD HC route. Would prefer to keep using Panasonic, but at the crossroads that we’re facing, we have to look at Sony again, simply for the expansive capability it offers in comparison. “

Again I do not understand what you mean by expansive capability. They do not have an AVCHD camera at this time. They only have the HDV or XDCamEX cameras and neither of those look expansive to me. So maybe I do not understand what you mean by expansive? Ability to do Standard Def and High Def? Scalable Long GOP recording? Perhaps you would like to elucidate on what you mean?

[Galen Yeo] “If things can scale up on the SD HC side, I foresee that would definitely work for us and many other users. “

I do not understand what you mean by scale up, do you mean match the quality of the XDCAM EX signals. I would say at 21 mbs, it is pretty close. If by scale up beyond that I think that would be harder in that the write speed of the cards becomes taxed.

[Galen Yeo] “The look of the Panasonic camera has long been favoured by many cameramen and that is the key issue. But ultimately, a faster workflow is equally important. “

There is no faster workflow than P2. And it doesn’t matter if you are looking at AVCHD, XDCAM EX or XDCAM HD. Nothing is faster.

[Galen Yeo] “Am puzzled as to how and why Panasonic has not understood the needs of long form users with regards to P2.”

I don’t believe there has been any disconnect on our part, when we introduced P2 4 years ago the solid stgate memory available at the time is what we had to work with. We couldn’t make 64GB cards at that time because the base level memory was not even available. We have consistantly added to the length of the recording time as the size of the memory has increased. So right now we are on the eve of delivering the 64GB. Since we did not feel that our target customer would not benefit from even more compression at the recording end of things end, it is something that we have had to live with and folks have come to figure out how to make it work or that have sat back like yourself waiting for the right size memory to come along.

[Galen Yeo] “That’s been a key block for us, and I suspect many other people. You gain in some areas, but you lose in others. I understand the technology but I feel that Sony in that regard, has offered a better option for long form users”

Well in one way yes, they have a tape in HDV. That has its own pitfalls. On the SxS camera, yes there is longer record time but along with the issues of that camera and its algorithm and its imagers. What it really boils down to is that it really depends on what an individual thinks is the priority for them. Picture quality and I am not talking static resolution here, but 4:2:2, gamma curves, etc. Or longer recording time. And eventually that becomes a moot point when the P2 cards hold 64GB, read November. Life is always full of tradeoffs, especially at this end of the market.

Hope this helps,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Galen Yeo]

Jan

I am curioous what are the numbers of DVX users to HVX P2 users? And the number of DVCPro 50 / HD users to HPX P2 users? The question is why we are not among the latter group. I have no doubt there are people who are using P2 for long form, but having read less than favourable reviews for the workflow and spoken to users, we know the camera doesn’t address our workflow needs. Unfortunately, there isn’t an industry poll, and I believe that many purchasing decisions that go beyond this issue. Would I use P2 for a controlled dramatic or commercial shoot? Absolutely. For a single shooter run and gun situation in a war zone? Unlikely. After we moved on from 16 mm cameras, HD video was a godsend.

These issues have more to do with how cameramen need to function and less to do with the quality of the P2 card or codec, which are excellent. DVCPro HD is a great codec. I think Pana has done a great job and I stand by their cameras. But until transfer speeds increase exponentially and bigger media become available, it’s going to be hard for us. Dealing with XDCam is actually less of an issue. It’s not the perfect codec but it works well enough. As a user, I do wish we didn’t have to choose between so many formats, which is why we welcome development on universal media like SD HC.

Thank you.

GY

[Nate Stephens]

Galen,

Just “How BIG Media” do you need?? I have used our HVX200 and HPX500 in studio test where we recorded over 24 hours to an attached MacBook Pro / mirrored sata drive.. Over 24 hours with out drop out or any other problems… That is a very BIG 24 hours of 1080HD.. via firewire….

Me thinks you need to expand your reading materials. Also check out the the DVXusers.com forum and read it all. I did. And my only regret is that due to the economy, I have not been able to really play with our new cameras yet..

FCP, Mac Pro, Mac Book Pro, HPX500, HVX200, Betacam, Dvcam
Write for the Edit, Shoot for the Edit, Edit…..KISS Principle

[Galen Yeo]

Thanks Nate, but we don’t and can’t film with a firewire connection going into a laptop. Not portable enough. The Olympics was done on Panasonic P2 so hats off to them. A lot of gear I bet…

[Nate Stephens]

Galen,

Any where you put the camera on a tripod, I can put a laptop and record 24 hours to mirrored drives with instant editing available. A backpack is to big for all the gear that I need to carry. More like a briefcase is all I need to carry besides the camera and tripod… And with that brief case I can download P2 cards, while I am out in the woods shooting on more P2 cards..

Portability and record times are not an issue.

If you want a Sony that bad go spend the money… Or if you hurry, you can still save 2K on the HPX500, the best camera period under 10K…

FCP, Mac Pro, Mac Book Pro, HPX500, HVX200, Betacam, Dvcam
Write for the Edit, Shoot for the Edit, Edit…..KISS Principle

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Galen Yeo] “I am curioous what are the numbers of DVX users to HVX P2 users? And the number of DVCPro 50 / HD users to HPX P2 users? The question is why we are not among the latter group.”

Well actually the numbers are pretty good on both sides of that, both SD and HD.

[Galen Yeo] “I have no doubt there are people who are using P2 for long form, but having read less than favourable reviews for the workflow and spoken to users, we know the camera doesn’t address our workflow needs.”

Many of theless than favorable reviews on workflow are really more of an issue with the person and not the workflow. Most have found the workflow to be rather bullet-proof.

[Galen Yeo] “Unfortunately, there isn’t an industry poll, and I believe that many purchasing decisions that go beyond this issue. Would I use P2 for a controlled dramatic or commercial shoot? Absolutely. For a single shooter run and gun situation in a war zone? Unlikely. After we moved on from 16 mm cameras, HD video was a godsend.”

Yes and those that have found the HD on P2 find it to be the next round of godsend.

[Galen Yeo] “But until transfer speeds increase exponentially and bigger media become available, it’s going to be hard for us.”

Well the transfer times are faster than digitizing the tape footage and in general you can offload a card faste4r than you can fill one.

[Galen Yeo] “Dealing with XDCam is actually less of an issue. It’s not the perfect codec but it works well enough..”

XDCAM HD is basically is a tape-based workflow and certainly not as fast to the edit, and the archive just becomes a little odd in that you have to hope that 10 years from now that device that plays it back will still be available. Unlike data.

[Galen Yeo] “As a user, I do wish we didn’t have to choose between so many formats, which is why we welcome development on universal media like SD HC.”

The SDHC probably will not be a universal media, but may be the closest thing to it on the consumer/prosumer end. Check out the Sony versions of the AVCHD cameras. They are using small discs to record to. The thing I like about P2 is that you can record both the DVCPRO formats and the AVC-Intra cormat to it. It is truely a format agnostic recording medium.

All the best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Galen Yeo]

Jan

Thanks. I had a question. We shoot in PAL, so the AG-HMC152EN brochure indicates that the camera captures everything with a “native 1080 / 50p scan.” (PAGE 4) How does that translate when one records into 1080/50i mode (which is the only 1080 format available on this camera)? Will we get a picture that looks more i or p?

I like the look of 50p but not such a fan of 50i.

Appreciate if you could clarify.

Thanks

GY