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Art doesn’t pay
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[Andrew Kimery] “First off, I don’t think there is an inherently right or wrong answer with film school. “
I think we’ve gotten a bit off into the weeds with this film school discussion. To me, the inherent point in the video is that art+commerce=success. If you look at most successful directors, they had plenty of early, unsuccessful crap that they made for the love of the art. Then they started to learn that it’s “show BUSINESS”. It takes people willing to pay for your services that allows you to create artistic results.
And pertaining to Ron Howard, there’s a really good interview with him done years ago on the Howard Stern radio show (before Sirius). He talks about trying to raise money for the first film. He considered running his own informercial in “Happy Days” asking people to send him money. Until he found out that was illegal. He jokingly said he even considered acting in a one-off “adult” film. Paraphrasing, “Who wouldn’t pay to see Opie do that??!”
Howard and Glazer were arranging a bunch of studio meetings and Disney was the last one, as everyone else had turned them down. He said that he almost didn’t go, because he was afraid that anything he’d do would be “Disney-fied”. But of course, the meeting happened, which started him on a roll as a director.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Oliver Peters] “I think we’ve gotten a bit off into the weeds with this film school discussion.”
Us? Weeds? Never! 😉
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[Bill Davis] “And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough – you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return. (shudder)”
On the micro scale this describes how individuals can justify preferences for technology brands. The art of design and marketing is to present such fictional reality of what represents superiority. On the macro scale, this is the exact description of religion.
However the need to believe fictional reality is hard wired in us so no surprises that it is at the heart of so much of our belief systems. Which sadly means there is no such thing as actual reality. Someone will one day do a Phd on this forum to show how the concept of reality is a shifting phantom.
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[Bill Davis] “And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough – you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return. “
Isn’t this what we do for a living? We create/edit stories together (ranging from very subjective to very objective)
in order to elicit a desired action by the audience (be happy, be said, pick Jif over Skippy, vote for this person, dare to overcome adversity, don’t eat fast food, etc.,).-Andrew
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[Michael Gissing] “Someone will one day do a Phd on this forum to show how the concept of reality is a shifting phantom.
“Reality is long gone I’m afraid.
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[Bill Davis] “And the scary corollary now, is that if you can successfully manipulate people into accepting an fictional reality well enough – you can manipulate their behavior in reality, in return.
“Harari proposes that most society is based on certain fictions or myths, or imagined realities. He talks, specifically, about sapiens and what differentiates us from other less civilized human siblings (and apes).
There is no genetic code for equality, or freedom, or money, or class/caste. These are not elements of our biology. When one is born into wealth, that status is not encoded in to the sapien DNA. The status of wealth in that newborn baby is an accepted fiction that is perpetuated by all other sapiens. Ants or bees, for example, have their roles biologically encoded. Drones are drones, workers are workers, queens are queens. There is no “law” in those societies where a workers gets a “fair shot” or opportunity at being queen. So, we as humans, create the fiction or intellectual myths, that everyone deserves a chance to be whoever they want. That is unique to sapiens. So on some level, we are all manipulated and manipulating. So while one’s “reality” may be influenced by other myths, it doesn’t mean that your reality is any different. It is still a myth that was created in order to organize and classify a group of sapiens. Yes, this can be used for nefarious purposes, but it is also used for good.
And to Andrew Kimery, the answer if Jif, obviously.
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Finally, another Yuval Harari fan emerges….
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[Herb Sevush] “I do know that at least some of the folks on your original list got absolutely nothing out of film school, because they never went to film school — Terence Malick was a philosophy major at Harvard, Lynch was a painter at the Penn Academy of Fine Arts and Burton went to an art school where he studied animation.
“Then you should call the American Film Institute folks to quibble with them – because it’s website lists them both as alumni. And it’s listed first on the general list of best film schools in the US.
To quote:
1. American Film Institute
Among the most selective film schools in America, AFI’s Center for Advanced Film and Television Studies in Los Angeles offers a two-year conservatory program where students specialize in fields including directing, producing and writing, often coming to the institute after working in the industry or having attended other schools. Its “fellows” are typically more mature (average age is 27) and benefit from speakers and teachers drawn from the highest levels of the industry, supported by the full weight of AFI itself. Comparing it to cross-town rivals UCLA and USC is a bit of apples-and-oranges, given its small size and emphasis on specialization, but AFI’s glittering parade of alumni, from David Lynch to Darren Aronofsky, remains unrivaled when it comes to auteur filmmakers. Students are guaranteed the freedom to make a thesis film and are given access to SAG members for their casts and $13,500 in financing. If you know where you’re going, AFI can get you there.
TUITION $38,416 for first year; $37,112 for second year (plus $8,033 for thesis)
DEGREES MFA, certificate of completion
NOTABLE ALUMNI Terrence Malick (The Tree of Life), David Lynch (Blue Velvet), Darren Aronofsky (Black Swan)
“I love AFI and would be nowhere without it.” — David Lynch
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery. -
[Bill Davis] “Then you should call the American Film Institute folks to quibble with them”
Bill, For someone who never went to film school (I presume) you are really doubling down on this ☺
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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[Oliver Peters] “Bill, For someone who never went to film school (I presume) you are really doubling down on this ☺”
I’m not defending film school.
I’m defending the concept of formal education. Whether that happens in a “film school” or in a movie making collective, or in a class at your local library. I’ve learned that the more I interact with people who now MORE than I do – the smarter I become. And those are almost always the people who have STUDIED things more than I have.
Sure you can teach yourself. But it’s usually harder and less efficient than letting communities of experts come together and AGREE on the most important concepts and the curriculum that has the best and most efficient chance of success.
A “school” is simply and precisely that. A construct where the people teaching have demonstrated that they don’t just “think” they know more about topic under discussion than the rest of the class – but that theres been a systematic search to IDENTIFY those who not only know the subject, but have an ability to pass the knowledge along.
TIME is the enemy in most of these things. If you can learn to understand in 1 year in a “film school” what it might take you 4 years to learn in the field – then film school is worth it. Period.
Why? IMO, because this is NOT like the era when Speilberg and most of that group was coming up. When he was making his home made student films – he, and a couple of friends were the rare ducks with an interest in films at ALL in the mid 1960s. (I know that because my sister went to High School with him, and remembers how “odd” he and his friends were considered)
Fast forward to today, and you can’t mutter “what do you mean by B-roll?” in any crowded elevator anywhere in the world without the likelyhood of getting a bunch of reasonable answers back. The entire LANDSCAPE of the filmmaking arts is UTTERLY different than it was 50 years ago.
So if back then, what you needed to catch someones attention might have been a couple of decent “resume” films on a festival circuit – that landscape is now more like competing with 50,000 Sundance submissions a year.
That’s a FAR different game.
We all HOPE against hope that pure talent will continue to win out over anything else. But I’m worried. You watch those shows like “The Voice” and you start to notice that absolutely stunning singing isn’t the massive separator we all probably believed it was before we saw those type shows. Now a positively angelic voice is BARELY a distinguishing element between the top 5 percent of competitors.
So too, (I worry) are technical film making chops whether they be cinematography, editing, sound, or whatever. Those are now the BASELINE skills. Some harder than others to master, but ALL stuff more able to RUIN your chances, rather than elements that will make you appear BETTER than your competition. Because legions have now had decades to practice this stuff. At home. In their spare time. For fun. And the level of expertise is stupidly high overall. (Watched the top public facing Vimeo stuff lately? Holy HECK a ton of people all around the world know how to make killer content now!)
So things are just “different” today.
Yes, the kids with bigger and better ideas – and some spark of magic will still make it without ANY formal training. But there will be fewer and fewer of them, as time goes on. Not because their ideas are less valuable, but because the competitive playing field is different now.
Malcolm Gladwells “Outliers” probably said it best noting that it’s not enough to be GREAT at something. You need to be great at something when the world changes to wanting what you’re great at.
Then the world moves on.
Formal Education may be just a “power booster” today – rather than a fundamental gatekeeper. But gamers all know that power boosters are sometimes critical to avoid DYING during play.
That’s the world we live in today.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.
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