Archiving EX footage to XDCAM disks

[Craig Seeman]

With firmware upgrade to expand the data capacity of the XDCAM recorder, the EX can be saved as a data file. Otherwise the limit is 500MB I believe.

Of course there’s always 25GB and 50GB Blu-ray discs but obviously that’s not quite as secure as XDCAM disc.

[Clint Fleckenstein]

We’re in the process of starting just that. We have a PDW-U1 on the iMac used to organize and catalog our footage. We started with DVD while awaiting the firmware upgrade but now will be using the unlocked data capabilities of the XDCAM discs as a (hopefully) more durable backup medium. We keep our stuff online so this will just be for archival backup.

Cf

[Mark Raudonis]

[Craig Seeman] “there’s always 25GB and 50GB Blu-ray discs but obviously that’s not quite as secure as XDCAM disc”

Not as secure, true, but much cheaper! (By half)

We archive to BluRAY 50 gig (double sided) DVDs.

Mark

[Michael Slowe]

You are referring to camera original files (media) right? What are you archiving finished, edited productions to? In the past I rented HDCAM decks and archived to tape (expensive and stupid) and also mastered a downscaled version to DVCAM tape. Can we record back to an EX via SDI a finished master? I guess people are archiving to drives now but how reliable are they and will they play on demand in ten years? XDCAM discs seem a good idea but at a cost.

Michael Slowe

[Mark Raudonis]

[Michael Slowe] “expensive and stupid”

One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor.

I think you’re confusing “archiving” and “Mastering”. Most people refer to “archiving” as the process of
storing the “ORIGINAL CAMERA MEDIA”. In the old days (tape based) you simply boxed up the camera original tapes and sent them to storage. With tapeless, file based media, it’s a whole new world of options. I work in broadcast, and when the networks want to take delivery of ALL original production elements, you can’t just hand them a firewire drive. They want something thats a bit more stable. Blu Ray data discs fit that bill. XDCAM discs which with their built in “caddy” are quite robust, and work well also, but they’re alot more expensive per gig of storage. When you’re talking about five thousand hours of original media, the price diffrential adds up quickly, so we use BLURAY DVDs.

As for the final edited masters… the de facto standard here in Hollywood has been Sony’s HDCAMsr for most projects. Yes it’s expensive, but that’s the cost of doing business here. HDCAM is a slightly cheaper format, and still a good choice. Bottom line, most final projects are printed to tape and saved that way.

mark

[Craig Seeman]

On the subject of archiving and XDCAM EX I think there a few points worth mentioning.

Archive itself often means different things to different people. For example:
Do you need the camera masters or master of that local cable spot or corporate video to last 10 years or 100? Often time’s it may the former is sufficient. On the other hand you may hope that the documentary or feature films you’ve done may last beyond your lifetime. Ultimately most sources really only have a limited and declining utility and value over time.

Media includes the players. This is a BIG and often overlooked one for me. Having done 2″ and reel to reel 1/2″ video restoration, the difficulty in finding a player just a decade or two later may make the media difficult to use. Things I’ve burned on good quality CD media 15 years ago can still be read in any modern computer. Data DVD readers exist in nearly all modern computers as well.

What about Blu-ray and XDCAM? While the XDCAM disc may have a greater chance of survival I can’t say the same for the players. 20 years from now they may be as scarce as 2″ or 1″ machines. 3/4″ players are certainly not commonly found. Overtime format specific players are discarded. Manufacturing stops. Parts for servicing become scarce.

What will you be able to play your medium on in 10 – 20 years? It’s hard to say with Blu-ray and XDCAM. I believe Blu-ray readers will be more common than XDCAM disc readers but I’m not sure. Blu-ray readers/burners are still rare compared to DVD as built in to off the shelf computers. Certainly they’re far more common as 3rd party purchases for those venturing into data backup or video burning then even the PDW-U1. I don’t think Blu-ray will reach the ubiquity of DVD though.

Solid State. My own guess is that something like SDHC (solid state) will eventually be the medium for both recording and archival although I think we have a few years of improvements to go before that hits mark though. It’s certainly noteworthy than many desktops come with built in card readers. Even newer Mac laptops have SD card readers built in. Multi format card readers are abundant and inexpensive. Proprietary slots (PCMCIA which P2 uses) are becoming scarce and even Apple has reduced the laptop models have have Express slots (used by SxS). I think “common solid state” will be the future.

In short, the the media last 50-100 years (or even 20) it doesn’t have much value if you can’t easily find a player. I think a good “archival” quality Blu-ray disc carefully handled since it doesn’t have the case that XDCAM disk has, will be easier to retrieve than XDCAM Disc.

I’ve been working in video for about 30 years and my subjective opinion is “informed” by my experience with a wide range of formats and “proprietary” no matter how long the media archival has been a serious drawback.

It is with some irony that the 2″ preservation project I worked on was re-archived to D2 rather than BetaSP. Guess which decks are easier to find now.

[Mark Raudonis]

[Craig Seeman] “Guess which decks are easier to find now”

That would be Beta SP, Craig! D2 has mostly disappeared.

And yes, I have several 3/4″ machines standing by in our machine room “just in case”. Occasionally, they do get used.

Long term, I’d favor XDCAM discs over BLURAY. I agree that the future of consumer Blu ray DVD may be in doubt, but the professional XDCAM format is a different story. I see increasing adoption of that format industry wide, across many different genres of production; news, sports, reality, etc.

A PDW-U1 is such a simple machine (few moving parts) that it’s quite possible to keep one in good working order for a long time. If consumer Bluray doesn’t take off, then the drives to play it will become quite rare. In a professional environment, having a PDW-U1 around is a no brainer.

Mark

mark

[Craig Seeman]

Mark, I think you miss my point, or maybe just disagree.

A facility may certainly keep decks and other playback devices alive for some time. Accessibility dwindles and it dwindles rapidly. I can only “prove” my point based on past history. Nearly every major and even widely used format became scarce inside of a decade or so. You may keep your PDW-U1 going but in 15 years they will be scarce. I know way too many graphic artist who have their work or Syquest or Jazz or Zip disks. Sure you can go on a hunt and find one around but I wouldn’t call that secure archival.

Beta, BetaSP, DigiBeta, has had an unusually long lifespan and that seems to be the lone reliable tape format to do that. The amount of NEW material shot on Bata formats is dwindling and so well the decks and their parts. It’s inevitable as summer becomes fall.

CD seems to one of the other rare media that has endured and I suspect DVD readers may be around for several more years too.

I am astonished how fast things change even in just 4 or 5 years now. Not only does media change faster but it continues to accelerate. We are headed to a time when codecs may endure longer than media types. I do think solid state (not XDCAM disc) will prevail and I do think solid state readers (much like DVD readers can also read CD) will be either backwards compatible or will be multi format.

[Mark Raudonis]

[Craig Seeman] “or maybe just disagree.”

I agree to a point. I’m saying the PDW-U1 is cheap enough and durable enough to keep with your archive. If, as you point out, the playback device is as crucial as the medium, then the PDW-U1 is a good candidate for a long term option. It’s independent of the computer, USB connected, and has very few moving parts to maintain.

Mark

[Craig Seeman]

[Mark Raudonis] “It’s independent of the computer, USB connected, and has very few moving parts to maintain. “
One would hope it has a long life expectancy but even things with few moving parts have a way of dying over time. Also you can’t hand the XDCAM discs off to a facility that doesn’t have access to a PDW-U1 or other XDCAM disc reader. You can hand a Blu-ray disc and they can get a Blu-ray disc reader for under $300. I honestly can’t determine the life on those either though.

On example some are facing is that if you buy a new Mac with Snow Leopard (you have no choice now) you will find the PDW-U1 kext (extension) is broken. That’s a perfect example of the problem with depending on proprietary technology.