Am I really the first to use Vegas to edit a documentary?

[Bastien Bouchard]

Sorry for the basic question, but why do you insist on working with tapes/proxy. What’s your “high resolution” format?

I have worked with big educational 2000 clips projects, or documentary from 35 hours shooting and never got into problems with Vegas.

Bastien

[Jill Simpson]

My captured video is SD DV AVI (NTSC), 13 GB per hour.
All those videos are on a 1 TB external hard drive.

I used low res intermediate files because I understood that working with full resolution files would be very slow – especially on my colleague’s computer, but even on my computer.

Bastien, you asked why I use tapes/proxies. Did I answer that question?

[John Rofrano]

> I used low res intermediate files because I understood that working with full resolution files would be very slow – especially on my colleague’s computer, but even on my computer

Have you found that to be true? You’d have to have a pretty weak computer these days to not be able to handle DV at full res. I assume you are working in a DV project so you may actually be stressing Vegas MORE because you’re asking it to uprez these lowrez proxies to work with them at DV resolution. It may actually be better to work with the DV footage directly so that Vegas doesn’t have to constantly rescale every frame. Have you tried that?

BTW, what codec are you using for the lowrez proxies and how low are they?

How powerful is your computer? In other posts you say you are using Vista and any computer capable of running Vista should not have a problem with fullrez SD DV (when you said you were using proxies I assumed you were working in HD with DV proxies not DV with even lower rez proxies. That’s been unheard of for years now)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Bastien Bouchard]

I consider working with proxy to be really unecessary since PIV cpu (about 7 years ago!). DV editing is pretty sleek with current generation computers/hard disks. Even my old PIII laptop managed it some years ago. And Vegas always excelled at that.

So, why not just work with the stock footage and get rid of your timecode problems?

BTW, one of the Vegas major (and unique i think) advantages is the possibility to work with many instances opened at the same time. I always work like that myself with complex long form projects: as much instances as i need to visualise my footage easily (Vegas is so fast when opening a second instance), and copy/paste from that to a master. I vastly prefer this method to nesting. The only reason i use myself nesting is to reduce the number of tracks in a project (say, for a heavy compositing intro), or keep one editing source for a clip part used in many projects.

Hope this help (sorry for my so so english…).

Bastien

[Jill Simpson]

Background:
We had hired a great editor – and paid him for work he supposedly did – but he became ill – incapacitated – and to make a long story short we eventually started editing ourselves. (I have previously edited several short videos, with some sophistication.)

———————————-
Why use intermediate files?

Using a trial version of Adobe Premiere Pro, I read about “intermediate” files in Premiere’s help file and on-line guide.

That launched me down a trail where I searched the internet for information regarding intermediate files, and found lots of information, but none telling me that they are not necessary for decent computers editing SD video.

I now see that Vegas’ help file only talks about intermediate files in the context of HD video.

My experience:

I experienced that full resolution files take longer to load.

I did not experience Vegas running more slowly with full res files,
but
I thought by the time I’m working with all my video files, I would experience problems,
and
that my colleague would definitely experience problems on her 3-year-old computer. (I know we could upgrade her RAM and CPU, or buy a new computer, but I thought using intermediate files would be simpler!)

A Secondary Reason:
My colleague’s computer had ample room for our 60 videos in low res, but no room for the videos in full res. Of course, we could have bought a second 1 TB external hard drive for her to have a copy of the DV files.
If I had known intermediate files gave more pain than gain, I would of course have spent that $150, especially considering the number of hours I (and forum readers) have spent on this.

————————————
Our New Plan of Action (Thank you):
– buy another 1 TB external hard drive
– replace the associated video in the .veg files from the low res files to the uncompressed SD DV files.
– *** instead of using subclips, batch render the regions we have already saved in the project file we ended up creating for each tape ***
– work with rendered clips, probably using Sony Media Manager, and thus not need the full-length source files in our project.

———————————-
Project Settings
I assume you are working in a DV project so you may actually be stressing Vegas MORE because you’re asking it to uprez these lowrez proxies to work with them at DV resolution
Since I was using subclips instead of rendering, I reasoned that I could use low res project settings and then switch to high res when I wanted to render, so no, I wasn’t forcing Vegas to uprez lowrez proxies. I did, however, just find that I had the Pixel Aspect Ratio as Square 1.0 whereas the low res files are .909. Thanks for making me check. (I checked if that correction solved the “Project ‘full’?” problem. It did not.)

What codec are you using?
I tried mov, thinking that would be most compatible with FCP, if the person we originally hired (and paid) to be our editor ever recovers from his illness, but the audio was always crunched 10% short at the end. (I converted using another friend’s Adobe Media Encoder CS4.)
I tried xvid-avi, but my colleague’s computer could not open it. I’m sure all I needed to do was get her to install xvid, but she’s not technically inclined, and lives a fair distance from me. I probably could have guided her to download the k-lite codec pack or just xvid over the phone, or by remote controlling her computer, but I had found her computer could play mp4s, so:
I used mp4 (360×240, 29.97 fps, .909 pixel aspect ratio, 48000 kHz, 80 kpbs audio, ?500 kbps? video) – ~350 MB per hour.

How fast is your computer?
Yesterday morning I added details to my signature, but failed to include my signature with my posts. Here it is:

– 4 GB RAM
– Intel duo core processor, 2.16 gHz EACH, 4.3 gHz total
– Vista 64-bit (32-bit able)
– Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS
– Sound Card: RealTek High Definition Audio, 6.0.1.5384
– Camera: Sony DSR-PD170. Also: Kodak m1033 digital.
——–
Jilligan

[Jill Simpson]

Merci Bastien pour ton avis au sujet de “Nesting” et les “Instances”. I knew about instances but had not thought about using extra instances instead of nesting, or about some of the great ways to use nesting you suggest. I will try what you suggest, to be sure I understand it.

Thanks also for the suggestion to not use intermediate files. John Rofrano made the same suggestion. In case you did not receive my reply to him, and you want to, here’s the link:
[url=https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/24/888877]Why I used intermediate files[/url]

– 4 GB RAM
– Intel duo core processor, 2.16 gHz EACH, 4.3 gHz total
– Vista 64-bit (32-bit able)
– Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS
– Sound Card: RealTek High Definition Audio, 6.0.1.5384
– Camera: Sony DSR-PD170. Also: Kodak m1033 digital.
——–
Jilligan

[Douglas Spotted eagle]

Looking at this post, Jill, the problem isn’t at all Vegas, it’s pilot error and a lack of understanding of video in general.
Your computer is the first place to start. Full resolution DV files are a cakewalk on any reasonably tuned system built in the last 5-6 years.
It sounds like your computer is in major need of a tuneup

~side note, saying “uncompressed DV files” is somewhat like saying you have a two-wheeled trike. DV is always compressed, which is why a fast computer isn’t needed.
FWIW, it’s a better/more productive idea/workflow to simply capture full-length tapes, cut/edit as needed, using regions and markers, or media tags.

A better grasp of codecs and general video would probably help you a lot. DV for example, is about the lowest rez, most easily decoded of all the current formats, for all NLE software, and outside of FCP, all of the NLE software apps out there can share files easily and painlessly.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
VASST

Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
Aerial Camera/Instructor

[Ron Lindeboom]

[Jill Simpson] “I don’t believe it, but the problems I am encountering suggest I am the first to use Vegas to edit a documentary.”

No, as others here have said: many have done this and done so successfully.

[Jill Simpson] “From our 60 tapes, totaling 50 hours, we have oh-let’s-say 250 clips, which we now need to pull into our timeline like puzzle pieces, knowing we have more puzzle pieces than can fit in the finished puzzle.”

Pros would first log the shots and would only import areas of the tapes that would actually have a chance of being used in the production. With 60 tapes and 50 hours, you are bound to have at least 9/10s that isn’t even up for consideration.

Import the clips that at least stand a chance and then cull those down by using setting in and out points to delineate the areas that you really want to consider.

Importing it all as low-rez proxies (if I heard you and understand you correctly) is a poor way to consider this job.

The time that you send in the log process will more than save you many times over in helping you isolate good shots, correct scenes, etc.

Carve the mountain down to a workable hill.

Also, as Douglas points out: make sure that your machine is optimized for what you want to do. Using an older machine to edit — while it serves as your internet surfing machine, etc., running virus detection and anti-spyware programs, etc. — is a recipe for disaster.

Vegas works fine, the issues are on your end and need to be sorted out one bite at a time if you are going to eat this elephant.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom

[Jill Simpson]

Thank you Douglas,

I accept and agree – pilot error. I’ve been trying to understand why I’m encountering so many problems when others aren’t, and indeed it seems reason #1 was I didn’t know better than to believe an article suggesting I need to know how to use intermediate files, and my searches for more info on intermediate files coincidentally corroborated that belief, so down a loony labyrinth I went.

“uncompressed DV”
– as I wrote that I was wondering if DV was compressed. Thanks for correcting me.
– Ah, I get it: While DV is compressed, xvid-avi is both compressed and strategically lossy. Did I get it?
– If a 13 GB per hour DV file is compressed, what do you call a 350 MB per hour mp4 file?

Light is entering my being, at last.

[David Shirey]

[Jill Simpson] “- If a 13 GB per hour DV file is compressed, what do you call a 350 MB per hour mp4 file?”

I’d call it very compressed, and not a source I’d want to edit from. All these codecs floating around can be pretty confusing. Especially when clients request a certain format not knowing the details. Like when they ask for an mp4, but don’t tell you what they’re using it for, what resolution/bitrate they need it.

For standard definition editing, DV is pretty universal. While I don’t remember if I’ve transferred avi captured DV footage into FCP, I know I’ve transferred FCP captured mov files into Vegas with no problem. If you can just get all your footage in DV format and edit in a project set to DV, I would think everything should work fine. If it gives you problems with having too many clips, and there’s no cost efficient way to improve the computer, could you try just making a second Vegas program and putting the remained of the clips in there, and then just alt+tab between them?