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After Effects users, are you happy?
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[Walter Soyka] “In fact, I think looking at a layer-based system, the idea that a track-matted layer has to be adjacent to its matte leads to a disorganization that you can very easily overcome with a free-form flow graph. Matte management is the bane of layered compositors.”
This is indeed one of the real weaknesses of Ae from a compositing point of view, making for a really clunky workflow. It works, but it certainly doesn’t work elegantly.
Of course, as you know, this is not something that is a problem in Motion, where you can apply a matte from anywhere without the need for the layer (or group) to be adjacent. So this is not in fact a limitation of track-based systems, just a quirk of Ae’s ancient architecture.
But yes, the real beauty of node-based systems is the power and flexibility in terms of being able to patch anything anywhere very quickly and simply which is the key to complex compositing.
One of the often overlooked features of node-based compositors that Ae lacks (and Motion too) is the option to use Effect Masks, i.e. the ability to use any bitmap or shape to mask the effect of any process (using RGB, alpha, hue, saturation, luminance, auxiliary channels, etc.). The lack of this very powerful and flexible feature in Ae again makes for some really clunky workarounds that mostly don’t achieve the same result as an effect mask would.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Walter Soyka] “In my mind, for nodes, the flow graph sets the structure of the comp. Time is expressed and can be manipulated, but it is entirely independent of the the structure. For layers, the timeline sets the structure of the comp in the X dimension and varies over time in the Y direction. They are linked.”
A very insightful formulation. (Though I think you’ve got your X and Y mixed up?)
In many ways though it encapsulates the limitations of layer-based systems.
Because the “structure” of the comp can only be expressed by the way that layers are superimposed/stacked in the Y direction, there are limits to how complex you can make the compositing. Or rather complex compositing makes for a great deal of redundancy in that you need to duplicate layers unnecessarily rather than simply piping one instance wherever it is needed.
The other point is that although the layered timeline is showing you something about the structure of the comp, it’s a fairly incomplete picture. You’re only really seeing the layer order (and a few other things), rather than the processes that are being applied. To see those processes you have to step through each layer and examine what’s happening.
With nodes, of course, you can see the entirety of the structure, including many of the key processes, at one time which is a huge bonus. (Obviously, there’s still a great deal you’re not seeing without stepping through each node, but it’s a lot more feedback than tracks give you.)
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Walter Soyka] “but you have to jump to the flow graph to get at the compositing structure.
“Avid|DS had node-based compositing and effects inside a track based NLE. Loved it. Certainly better than the barely comprehensible timeline AE presents (love what AE does, not a fan of the interface). JHMO
Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter -
[Simon Ubsdell] “One of the often overlooked features of node-based compositors that Ae lacks (and Motion too) is the option to use Effect Masks, i.e. the ability to use any bitmap or shape to mask the effect of any process (using RGB, alpha, hue, saturation, luminance, auxiliary channels, etc.). The lack of this very powerful and flexible feature in Ae again makes for some really clunky workarounds that mostly don’t achieve the same result as an effect mask would.”
Adobe half-implemented this in Ae CC 2014, adding a “compositing options” feature with the ability to mask an effect using arbitrary masks on the layer. Perhaps “half” is a bit generous, because this is still nowhere near as flexible as an effects mask in a node-based system, and it’s a lot more obscure and difficult to manage.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Simon Ubsdell] “A very insightful formulation. (Though I think you’ve got your X and Y mixed up?)”
Just turn your head!
Of course I agree with everything you’re saying here. Layers trade away fine-grained control for simplicity in presentation and the context of time — until you get a complex comp, and then simplicity goes right out the window.
Also worth mentioning (and certainly something you know), Motion shows you processing in the timeline context (as did DS, right? And as does Mistika), so there are other ways of making a meaningful layer-based system beyond what Ae does. In fact, Mistika lets you switch freely between layers in their time-space and nodes in a flow graph.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “Also worth mentioning (and certainly something you know), Motion shows you processing in the timeline context”
Yes, indeed. I was forgetting that 😉
Actually I used to use the Motion Timeline far more extensively for this, which is obviously the method that the original developers had in mind, but over time I have come to use the Layers pane instead and only access the Timeline for finessing timings rather than “compositing”, which I think is a more efficient way of working with the Motion model.
I should take another look a Mistika, I know, but I was among the early adopters of Jaleo and quickly gave up on it on account of its many design quirks – which you would either love or hate.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Jeremy Garchow] “I get a lot of weird crashing, a lot of indecipherable errors, a constant battle with the new caching system (although when it works, it is good), and a lot of freezing.”
I know you’re not necessarily looking for help, but I am curious. What kinds of errors are you getting? What doesn’t work with the cache? Anything in particular that you think is leading to the freezing?
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
I used to have a folder of screenshots of all the weird errors I was getting, but I trashed it as it seemed useless. I’m sure I can dig one up somewhere, they are usually gibberish.
I don’t know what causes the errors, it usually happens when plugins get involved, the cache seems to get kinda sticky and full and I need to purge everything and restart as it seems to lose its way (like it can’t keep track of all the changes and iterations).
I can’t nail down anything in particular which is the cause of the frustration. Sometimes editing a mask, or roto, or paint will cause the whole UI to go grey and become unresponsive. Auto saves seems to cause a lot of harm in the middle of caching.
Basically, all of the UI feels like it’s disconnected at the moment. It is hard to stay focused and get work done.
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Walter has already answered this, but I’d just like to concur with him that this is all very simple indeed to do in something like Fusion – maybe even simpler than in Ae?
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Walter Soyka] “I know you’re not necessarily looking for help, but I am curious. What kinds of errors are you getting? What doesn’t work with the cache? Anything in particular that you think is leading to the freezing?”
Here’s a few:
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