A getting-started workflow question (regarding source file/project/render file frame rates)

[John Rofrano]

[Scott Matthews] “1) Am I correct to think that when I export, I should export at 29.97fps for both the 59.94fps and 29.97 fps files — and at 23.976fps for the 23.976fps files?”

Yes, YouTube expects 29.97fps and not 59.94fps.

[Scott Matthews] “I’m a bit confused because the export templates don’t seem to “follow” the fps of my file — so I have to manually select 23.976fps if I’m using a 23.976fps source file?”

What rendering templates are you referring to? All of my 24p templates are set to 23.976fps.

[Scott Matthews] “2) Is it important that the Movie Studio “project” first be set to match the source file (or do I set the project to match the intended output?) — meaning, for “59.940 fps progressive” files — should the Movie Studio project be set to that? If so, it seems there isn’t an option to select “HD 1080-60p” for the project.”

That’s not an easy one to answer so let me explain the trade-offs. First let me state that there is no way to deliver 59.94(60p) on DVD or Blu-ray so it’s not a “traditional” delivery format. You will need a media server connected to your TV in order to enjoy them. I have never shot 60p so I see no need to do so but people say it’s silky smooth motion and they love it. Traditionally you would only shoot 60p because you wanted to do some slow motion effects and would eventually slow it down to 30p for delivery. Just because your camera shoots 60p doesn’t mean you should use it for all of your shooting. So I would say, don’t shoot 60p unless you are planning to do some slow motion work but fell free to argue about how great it looks and continue to do so. 😉

Having said all of that… if you don’t want any surprises when you render, set your project to match your output properties. If you want to maintain the full properties of your source video, set your project to match your source. You will definitely get a better editing experience by having your project match your source but as you said Movie Studio doesn’t have a 60p project setting because it’s not a standard format for delivery.

[Scott Matthews] “Or does the project setting not really matter, and all that matters is the render setting?”

It matters if you are rendering to a different aspect ratio. Your project should always match the aspect of your output. It also matters if your source media frame rate does not match your project frame rate because Vegas Pro will convert the frame rate on-the-fly during playback so playback may get very laggy if your computer can’t keep up with the conversion.

[Scott Matthews] “Thanks for putting up with my questions — it seems there are so many details in getting started, I seem to be having trouble getting the big picture for a simple import/export workflow.”

Ask as many questions as you want. That’s how we learn new things. 😀

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Scott Matthews]

[John Rofrano] “Ask as many questions as you want. That’s how we learn new things. :-D”

Thank you so much, you’re generous to share your time with folks like me.

[John Rofrano] “Yes, YouTube expects 29.97fps and not 59.94fps.”

OR 23.976fps, correct?

[John Rofrano] “Just because your camera shoots 60p doesn’t mean you should use it for all of your shooting”

My AVCHD options seem to be 24p, 60i, 60p — and there’s also a 30fps MP4 — from what I’ve been reading, I think I’m now inclined to shoot 24p, and render 23.976fps files (for keeping and for YouTube) — does that seem sensible?

One concern with 24p is that if it’s bright out, I won’t be able to get a slow enough shutter (unless I also get an ND filter).

And a related question — I hear people say that it’s best to shoot with the shutter at roughly half the frame rate — eg, if I’m shooting 24p, then 1/50 second exposure is best. But following the motion blur argument, wouldn’t 1/30 be even better for 24p?

Thank you again!

[John Rofrano]

[Scott Matthews] “OR 23.976fps, correct?”

Yes.

[Scott Matthews] “My AVCHD options seem to be 24p, 60i, 60p — and there’s also a 30fps MP4 — from what I’ve been reading, I think I’m now inclined to shoot 24p, and render 23.976fps files (for keeping and for YouTube) — does that seem sensible?”

I would only shoot 24p if you are looking for that film cadence. You need to pan slower because motion isn’t as smooth because of the lower frame rate. I would shoot 30p for YouTube unless you really like the look of 24p motion.

[Scott Matthews] ” I hear people say that it’s best to shoot with the shutter at roughly half the frame rate — eg, if I’m shooting 24p, then 1/50 second exposure is best. But following the motion blur argument, wouldn’t 1/30 be even better for 24p?”

Actually it’s double not half but your rate is correct. So if your frame rate is 24fps you want to use a shutter speed that is at least 1/48 which is double the frame rate (i.e., 48 time a second). Of course if you use a faster shutter speed you will get less blur but if you use a slower shutter speed you will get strobing not really more blur (i.e., the image will be more like a slide show than a movie)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Scott Matthews]

[John Rofrano] “I would only shoot 24p if you are looking for that film cadence. You need to pan slower because motion isn’t as smooth because of the lower frame rate. I would shoot 30p for YouTube unless you really like the look of 24p motion.”

My camera only has 24p, 60p, 60i — and a 30fps MP4 (which I believe is the older format, with less horizontal resolution and non-square pixels) — what would you pick given that?

[John Rofrano] “Of course if you use a faster shutter speed you will get less blur but if you use a slower shutter speed you will get strobing not really more blur (i.e., the image will be more like a slide show than a movie)”

fwiw, I’d actually expect it would only strobe with the shutter *longer* than the frame rate — eg, a 1/20 sec exposure for 24p. But I’d expect that with, say, a 1/30 sec exposure for 24p, I’d expect that you could actually be able to accommodate more panning (because each frame would “contain more of the time” so to speak).

Thanks again, now every time I see a video I wind up wondering about how they shot it.

[John Rofrano]

[Scott Matthews] “My camera only has 24p, 60p, 60i — and a 30fps MP4 (which I believe is the older format, with less horizontal resolution and non-square pixels) — what would you pick given that?”

Given those choices and that fact that your delivery format is YouTube which is progressive I would shoot 30p. If you don’t like the fact that it’s 1440 instead of 1920 then shoot 60p but IMHO that’s overkill and adds problems in post because you will be throwing 1/2 the frames away for delivery. 60i would be my last choice for YouTube because it’s interlaced but it would absolutely be my 1st choice for DVD or Blu-ray.

[Scott Matthews] “I’d actually expect it would only strobe with the shutter *longer* than the frame rate — eg, a 1/20 sec exposure for 24p”

Yea, I had my “longer” and “shorter” backwards but we are saying the same thing; 1/20 shutter will strobe at 24p because the exposure is slower than the frame rate. You can test this in the camera’s preview LCD by recording a ceiling fan which is a classic test for this sort of thing.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Scott Matthews]

So, regarding your preference for 30p MP4 over 24p AVCHD — is it that you prefer “the look” of 30p over 24p? Or more that 30p is more forgiving when it comes to panning the camera? From my hunting around online, it seemed like most prefer 24p, so I want to be sure I’m following your thinking.

If I wind up shooting with different formats, is there some way to configure Movie Studio such that if I were to import a 24p source file, it automatically knows to set the project to 24fps, and chooses a 24fps render format — OR, if were to import a 30p/60p source file, it would instead automatically know to set the project to 30fps, and choose a 30fps render format? Or do I have to manually choose the project fps and select the corresponding render each time I use a different type of source?

[Scott Matthews]

[John Rofrano] “60i would be my last choice for YouTube because it’s interlaced but it would absolutely be my 1st choice for DVD or Blu-ray”

Sorry, one more thing — I’ve been doing more research, and it turns out the 60i in my camera is “Progressive Segmented Frame” — which I gather means it’s actually 30p video in a 60p “wrapper” — and, I gather, it’s not actually interlaced. So I’m not exactly sure if this might actually be the format you would prefer.

[John Rofrano]

[Scott Matthews] “So, regarding your preference for 30p MP4 over 24p AVCHD — is it that you prefer “the look” of 30p over 24p? Or more that 30p is more forgiving when it comes to panning the camera? From my hunting around online, it seemed like most prefer 24p, so I want to be sure I’m following your thinking.”

Because 30p is more forgiving and I’m not trying to make my videos look like film. Hollywood is moving to 48p because of the smoothness of motion so I don’t see why people are so hung up on 24p. 24p was a limitation of the technology at the time. It is now synonymous with the “film look” but “film” is going and digital so what does that even mean anymore? If you are going for the “film look” then my all means shoot and deliver in 24p.

[Scott Matthews] “If I wind up shooting with different formats, is there some way to configure Movie Studio such that if I were to import a 24p source file, it automatically knows to set the project to 24fps, and chooses a 24fps render format”

Modern versions of Movie Studio and Vegas Pro automatically do this. I’m not sure what version of Movie Studio started doing this but Movie Studio 12.0 and Vegas Pro 12.0 will now ask if you want to change your project if the first piece of media you drop on the timeline does not match the project.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com